@kev-m Fab. Thank you. I'll have a look through those 🙂 My EPC was E(51) when I bought this place in early 2020, but since work done has improved to D(63) and now waiting for a renewed survey after additional insulation - which means ironically that my costs have gone up as the rating has improved! I'm told there's not a lot more I can do to reduce heat loss further, though always on the lookout for things that have been missed.

Zoomuno - do you have Solar?

@diverted-energy Unfortunately not, though would love to. (Might be time to start buying lottery tickets!)

@zoomuno as you qualified for the Green Home Grant and had an EPC rating within range, you would have been eligible for 75% contribution or even 100% on the cost of Solar.

How did it end up a Heat Pump and not Solar?

I can see the TV ads now that will be showing within the next couple of years "Were you Mis-Sold a Heat Pump?". 

Heat Pumps are not the cost saving Silver Bullets they are being made out to be, this has to stop, especially on homes where there is no primary source of power being generated on site.

There are far more significant savings on the combined Energy Bill with Solar than any Heat Pump can ever give. This is not the first time I have read significant energy costs involved after Heat Pumps installed and an enquiry needs to be started as to whether this technology is working for the majority and not the minority.

It just does not make sense that that kind of money could have been better spent. I have started a Government Petition that would benefit people like you in doubling the next Windfall Tax and use 50% to allow people like you to fund panels against cheaper, ultimately FREE electricity where a significantly lower kwh rate is paid until the cost of the system is recovered, where it become yours.

I have asked permission to post details here and awaiting a reply.

It is based on how we paid for ours, we used Savings for the upfront cost - many don't have this luxury, then allowed Credit to build up on the supplier account and drew down each year. After 5 years, we recovered the costs in full at 5p/kw, if this was rolled out as a "Credit Union" type Fund, not a handout.

it means at say 15p/kwh (Solar payback Rate) after 5 to 10years, submitting 2 readings to your Energy company, one Grid and the other Solar. They then bill you for both supplies until you have repaid the Solar component where from then on, only ever billed for Grid power with the aim you use as much of the Solar as you can to avoid the higher rate.

Example Monthly Bill:

350Kwh Solar at 15p/kwh = £52.50 - Credited to your "Solar Loan Fund"
250kwh Export at 6.5p/kwh = £16.25  - Credited to your "Solar Loan Fund"
100Kwh Grid at 28p/kwh = £28.00 (Soon to be £46)

Bill value to Pay £80.50 (instead of £126)

Pay the bill as normal, you saved £45.50 on your electric bill and and paid £68.75 off your Fund. These figures are very quick examples and to be scaled as to size of system and self-usage. You can see the incentive to use as much as possible yourself in the Export value.

Would you sign a petition to have such as scheme? You won't need the Lottery Tickets if it happened.

Can anyone tell me why Martin Lewis is so against Solar? A couple of months ago, claiming "it wasn't worth it" with figures based almost on 100% export at 6.5p/kwh - yes, it would be the 35yr payback he was claiming, who in their right mind would export 100%? My not worth it Solar is saving me over £2,500 per year!!

Posted by: @diverted-energy

@zoomuno as you qualified for the Green Home Grant and had an EPC rating within range, you would have been eligible for 75% contribution or even 100% on the cost of Solar.

How did it end up a Heat Pump and not Solar?

I can see the TV ads now that will be showing within the next couple of years "Were you Mis-Sold a Heat Pump?". 

Heat Pumps are not the cost saving Silver Bullets they are being made out to be, this has to stop, especially on homes where there is no primary source of power being generated on site.

There are far more significant savings on the combined Energy Bill with Solar than any Heat Pump can ever give. This is not the first time I have read significant energy costs involved after Heat Pumps installed and an enquiry needs to be started as to whether this technology is working for the majority and not the minority.

It just does not make sense that that kind of money could have been better spent. I have started a Government Petition that would benefit people like you in doubling the next Windfall Tax and use 50% to allow people like you to fund panels against cheaper, ultimately FREE electricity where a significantly lower kwh rate is paid until the cost of the system is recovered, where it become yours.

I have asked permission to post details here and awaiting a reply.

It is based on how we paid for ours, we used Savings for the upfront cost - many don't have this luxury, then allowed Credit to build up on the supplier account and drew down each year. After 5 years, we recovered the costs in full at 5p/kw, if this was rolled out as a "Credit Union" type Fund, not a handout.

it means at say 15p/kwh (Solar payback Rate) after 5 to 10years, submitting 2 readings to your Energy company, one Grid and the other Solar. They then bill you for both supplies until you have repaid the Solar component where from then on, only ever billed for Grid power with the aim you use as much of the Solar as you can to avoid the higher rate.

Example Monthly Bill:

350Kwh Solar at 15p/kwh = £52.50 - Credited to your "Solar Loan Fund"
250kwh Export at 6.5p/kwh = £16.25  - Credited to your "Solar Loan Fund"
100Kwh Grid at 28p/kwh = £28.00 (Soon to be £46)

Bill value to Pay £80.50 (instead of £126)

Pay the bill as normal, you saved £45.50 on your electric bill and and paid £68.75 off your Fund. These figures are very quick examples and to be scaled as to size of system and self-usage. You can see the incentive to use as much as possible yourself in the Export value.

Would you sign a petition to have such as scheme? You won't need the Lottery Tickets if it happened.

Can anyone tell me why Martin Lewis is so against Solar? A couple of months ago, claiming "it wasn't worth it" with figures based almost on 100% export at 6.5p/kwh - yes, it would be the 35yr payback he was claiming, who in their right mind would export 100%? My not worth it Solar is saving me over £2,500 per year!!

Giving grants for heat pumps is about reducing C02 emissions, not saving money. 

I don't think anyone on this site, or anywhere else I can think of, has said heat pumps are 'silver bullets' or will save significant amounts of money compared with other sources of energy.  If properly designed, a heat pump is at best about equivalent to mains gas at current prices. All the documentation supplied via MCS makes it clear what the ASHP should cost to run so I can't see a general case for mis-selling.

I haven't done the calculations but I would have thought a heat pump would save more CO2 emissions than solar PV, which is why they are being funded and solar PV isn't.  I could be wrong...

I don't have PV myself but I always thought solar PV made little difference to the amount of imported energy needed to run a heat pump.     

If you are talking about increasing feed in tariffs and providing grants for solar PV then that's a different discussion and could be a good idea if done properly with the right restrictions.  IMO of course. 😀  

@kev-m 

Since installing solar PV over 10 years ago we have reduced our annual electricity import by approximately 50% from an average daily 8kWh to 4kWh. After fitting a power diverter we have a completely free supply of hot water from Spring through to Autumn and have reduced our annual gas consumption by at least 20%. The most efficient gas fired power stations operating in combined cycle are approximately 50% efficient, so the reduction of 4kWh per day of electrical energy equates to at least 8kWh of gas CO2 emissions.

A further benefit of home solar PV is that the energy is generated where it is required, so there are no transmission losses and also it helps reduce the overall loading on the local distribution network.

I installed a small A2A ASHP last year, which not only provides AC on hot Summer days, but can also provide additional heating on the cooler days when there is still sufficient solar to provide some if not all the power required to run the heat pump. Even more reduction in both cost and CO2 emissions, which will hopefully reduce our gas consumption by up to 40%.

Whilst even a large solar PV array will not be able to power a larger ASHP during the Winter period, it will help to reduce the electricity imported. Probably of greater benefit would be that fact that for much of the Spring through to Autumn period it would not be necessary to run a heat pump for the production of hot water, and certainly it should not be necessary to run a legionella cycle, which at the moment our system performs almost daily with free energy from the Sun.

Whilst installing solar PV is not cheap (though the price has actually fallen over the years), I would certainly recommend doing so when finances permit, and I do believe that installations are VAT free at the moment as a government incentive.

My next objective is to install a battery storage system, so that whenever possible I can store the excess solar generation and hence not have to import from the grid during the evening and nighttime. I do believe that if you have both solar PV and battery storage installed together you can get both VAT free.

I'd second what @derek-m has said. Since solar panels can only generate when there's light and heat pumps only need to heat a house when it's cold outside, it's tempting to polarise. In fact, there's quite a bit of overlap, though.

• Even in the height of summer, most people still need hot water. Our solar pv + battery easily cover the energy needs of the ASHP for heating the water for showers for several people each day.
• In the winter, the solar pv + battery won't cover the ASHP needs, but any electricity generated will still offset.
• There are wintry days - particularly those beautiful frosty ones - where the temperature is low but there is plenty of brilliant sunshine. The amount of electricity generated then is surprising and could cover a large part of the heat pump's needs.
• The cold and dark extremes of the year are proportionately rather less than the metaphorical grey areas; the ones where it's cold enough to need a moderate heating draw from the heat pump but also where it's light enough for long enough that the solar PV is doing something significant.

For my situation, we've seen the combination of ASHP, solar PV and battery have made a massive beneficial impact on our bills. Only in December (when we had both ASHP and solar PV installed) and January have I seen our solar consistently meet less than about 20-25% of our total daily electricity needs and currently in the sunny months it's bouncing about between 75-90%. All that is ignoring the fact that anything we generate in excess of our needs ends up earning us approximately 15p/kWh as a result of the agile export tariff. In fact our last month's electricity bill saw us importing about £30 from Octopus at 32p/kWh and being reimbursed about £60 for the exports - all after we'd taken and used what we need to run the house.

So I'd strongly disagree that solar PV makes little difference. We've generated 3.5MW so far and the extrapolation suggests we'll end up at about 5.5MW for the whole year.

Whilst rereading my post above, I've only just realised the thread it's in. Obviously, it's great me giving anecdotes about how beneficial it can be to combine solar PV and a heat pump, but it's not a lot of use if one can only afford to pick one of the technologies to go with. I apologise, therefore, to anyone viewing my comments as insensitive.

I would say, however, that it's got me thinking far more about possible community schemes that might be available to participate in. I've looked around and seen plenty of schemes but none in my local area. Has anyone got any information about such schemes in the South East of England?

@kev-m so, installing a Heat Pump is for the "good of the planet", regardless of the cost of Energy?

I am surprised Zoomumo would have entertained a product to reduce CO2 that would increase his Energy bill six-fold if he had known? 

Currently, every KW of Grid electricity is 0.190kg CO2 - I used 7,500kwh last 12months equivalent of 1,425kg of CO2, however 6,000 of these kwh's came from my roof, this saving 1,140kg of CO2.

Burning methane in a Boiler releases 0.215kg of CO2 for every Kwh it produces and I only use if for a few days of the year. Electricity generation from Gas with combustion losses, transmission losses is roughly 45% efficient. For the £15,000 cost involved, it is not much CO2 being saved compared to to the Savings I can obtain via Solar PV.  Yes, there is COP to account for, but on a cold winters night and not many of them, the CO2 saving is 50% to 66%.

I'll hold my hands up, I put in Solar 6yrs ago and being lazy, put off the Hot Water Energy diversion as it means getting pipes from the wrong side of the house to the other. Next year, I will have Solar Hot Water, and additional 3.2kw panels, which will reduce Gas consumption to 1,200kwh and electricity to 500kwh. On top of of this for 8 months of the year I will be charging an EV using 80% Solar meaning no CO2 from the petrol I am currently burning.

10,000 Miles in a Nissan Note equivalent to 2,700kg CO2 (Petrol) of which 3 months of the year, some power would be from Grid at 0.190 per kwh. 

I am confused, when I see adverts for Heat Pumps, the claim is that they are more efficient way to heat and power a house and will save money on heating bills?

With Solar, my CO2 is massively reduced, even negative taking a petrol I am no longer burning in a car engine into consideration, so why would I even entertain spending £15,000?

Pretty much backs up that a Heat Pump Grant should never be given without first Solar to provide bulk of  power to run it. Why are grants not available to the more suitable type of Heat Pump - Air Conditioning?

I am not denying they are not efficient in warmer weather and would be idea in places copious amounts of Hot Water is required such as Schools and industry, but for heating at the wrong time of year, I just don't see it when A2A is more effective

Solar is giving me at least 80% of my annual Energy and saving me at least £2500 this year, £4000 next year as I love Air Conditioning in Summer and rack up many Kwhs usage with it. Its will also save me over £1,200 in petrol. 

Can a Heat Pump do that?

I really do see those TV ads now...

Anyway:

Thoughts on a petition to help more on board with Solar which was the intention of the previous post?

Would having funding available to be paid back in exchange for the energy it produces work? Based on Windfall money in order that the government is not funding it directly. £7 Billion would cover a lot of houses, paid back and reused in 7 to 10 years.

No, I am not saying increase export rates, I am saying use more of the reduced price power same as you would with Economy 7 during the day.

It does not need to be a Grant or Handout - just need the upfront cost covered.

Petition is there, just needs signing..

@diverted-energy

You need to add battery storage to your petition, since it would help to balance the supply and demand and in so doing help reduce the loading on the grid and the amount of money required to increase grid capacity as we transition to more electricity usage.

@diverted-energy 

I won't argue all your points because it would take too long.  You admit in your post you are confused and I think you are.  There are lots of arguments against A2W heat pumps I can think of but lack of solar PV in a house is not one of them. 

I do think solar PV should be encouraged by financial means but any argument for it should stand up on its own.