Aira has introduced the Aira Heat Pump, a product designed to shift European homes away from gas heating and towards electrification, leveraging advanced smart technology and sleek design.
The Aira Heat Pump is notable for several reasons, including its affordability facilitated by an all-inclusive monthly payment plan, cutting-edge technology and a pioneering 15-year ‘Comfort Guarantee’. The design, inspired by Scandinavian aesthetics, incorporates timeless elements, soft edges, intuitive lighting and a neutral colour palette, ensuring it remains stylish throughout its lifespan.
The product is controlled through a smart app and sleek thermostat, emphasising a digital-first strategy. It also introduces ‘Aira Intelligence’, a smart feature set that adapts to a user’s routine, planning heating and hot water schedules with precision. This system promises up to 40% savings on heating costs and a reduction of at least 75% in CO2 emissions from the outset.
Aira’s offering disrupts the market with its zero upfront cost, monthly payment model, and comprehensive ‘Comfort Guarantee’ covering performance, product and installation. This approach not only makes clean energy technology more accessible but also significantly lowers heating costs and CO2 emissions from day one. The design features ensure the pump blends into its surroundings, complemented by its quiet operation.
With roots in Sweden, a country where heat pump usage is widespread and contributes minimally to CO2 emissions, Aira’s product and engineering teams bring over two decades of experience to the development of this heat pump.
Based on the Aira Heat Pump Fact Sheet, here’s a list of its features and benefits:
Features and benefits
- High energy efficiency (class A+++ for both outdoor and indoor units).
- R290 refrigerant.
- Available in various capacities to suit different household sizes: 6 kW, 8 kW and 12 kW outdoor units.
- Aira Room Thermostat with intuitive light cues for easy control.
- Smart connectivity through the Aira Home Energy App for control and monitoring.
- Aira Intelligence for optimal efficiency, including intelligent temperature control, hot water control, and smart weather mode.
- 15-year Comfort Guarantee, covering performance, product, and installation.
- Signature Scandinavian design with low maintenance requirements.
- Designed for households ranging in size from small (1-2 people) to large (2-6 people).
- Ensures a comfortable temperature even on the coldest days, as guaranteed by the 15 Year Aira Comfort Guarantee.
- Allows for significant CO2 emissions reduction and heating cost savings.
- Tailors heating and hot water production to household routines and preferences, enhancing efficiency.
- Provides flexibility with the Away Mode and Hot Water Plus features for energy savings and on-demand hot water increase.
- Adapts to weather changes proactively to maintain indoor comfort.
- Offers complete user control over heating settings, consumption monitoring, and cost and CO2 savings estimates through the mobile app.
- Lowers energy consumption and environmental impact by learning and optimizing its operation based on household habits and weather forecasts.
- Easy installation and minimal maintenance with a comprehensive warranty for peace of mind.
- Enhances home aesthetics with a sleek, timeless design.
Martin Lewerth, CEO of Aira, emphasised to us the significance of the Aira Heat Pump launch as a milestone in the company’s mission to serve millions of customers, highlighting the environmental and financial benefits for households. Kaj af Kleen, Chief Product and Technology Officer, added that the development process was centered on creating a user-friendly system, underpinned by an intuitive app that offers control and peace of mind to users.
But do Aira have all the certificates and accreditation’s to know how to not design and install heating systems correctly?
@Derek M let’s hope so, and we’ll certainly find out in a few month’s time.
@Derek M Heating on the “never-never’? Regards, Toodles (Glad to be able to post again! (Sigh)
I must admit that I was filled with confidence when I read the following line, and also saw that Aira appreciate the benefits of buffer tanks. ☹️
Outdoor unit
The outdoor unit draws in and compresses fresh air to heat your home and water. 🙄
Yes, the dreaded buffer poses a potential challenge, but my understanding is that Aira plans to employ its own team for installing these units. Interestingly, I spent some time this weekend talking to an installer who advocates for the benefits of buffer tanks, believing they can be effective when properly balanced. I’m hopeful that Aira will ensure their installers are well-trained, likely adhering to Vaillant’s protocols. The 15-year comfort guarantee they offer, at least on paper, significantly reduces the risk associated with botched installations and the inefficiencies of a poorly implemented buffer. Like I said, time will tell.
@Derek M They wish to impress upon us that the fresh air is free (I’m not so sure about the ‘fresh’, especially after the latest UK government announcement that they wish to build some more gas-fired power stations, Arrrggh) and if HMRC get to know about air still being free – who’s to say how long before new legislation is introduced…? I think their copy writer needs to work with a proof reader too! Regards, Toodles, back with a vengeance!
Hi Toodles, have you been away?
I was more concerned about Aira’s obvious expert knowledge 🙄 of how heat pumps work, rather than whether air is free or not. So if it is only necessary to compress this ‘free’ air to heat your home, why do they bother using a refrigerant gas?
Perhaps Aira staff need to attend one of the MCS training courses?
@Derek M 🤣 Toodles (The security system took a dislike to me)
Of course there will be the need for more gas fired power stations in the future, otherwise we will not have any electrical power when the wind is not blowing and the Sun is not shining.
What is rather annoying is that we as consumers will have to foot the bill for these new power stations, after government policy had forced many of the previous, still operational, gas fired power stations to shut down and be decommissioned.
Highly useful forward planning. 😜
No data sheets or produce literature yet, but a very glossy product launch. It’s a branded Vaillant product, so it should be good. I’m not a great fan of the beige box look of most outdoor monobloc ASHPs, but that Aira washboard front grille, it’ll take forever to keep clean! The beige box wipes clean in 30 seconds. 😉
I share Derek’s concern, the Aira product itself can’t offer any guarantees of efficiency, energy saving and life cycle cost reduction, but here’s another brand doing exactly that via their web site with a few clicks of a mouse. As a system it is only as efficient as it’s weakest part, which for retrofits (and far too many new builds) is the hydronic circuit it is connected to and the competency or otherwise of the installer.
In 10 years time ASHPs will have either revolutionised the European & UK domestic heating market, or become the latest mass mis-selling scandal. Time will tell.
@IvanOpinion as far as I’m aware the Aira is a white labelled Vaillant. When I spoke to Aira on a Zoom call a few months ago they said they would exclusively fit Vaillant units in the UK. Then came the recent announcement and by all accounts under the redesigned exterior sits a Vaillant. I think it’s got some modifications and it comes with an Aira app. It’ll be interesting to see what the feedback is once the units are installed.
@Mars I have them coming to do a survey soon, so I’ll ask the surveyor. In a way, it would be reassuring if it is just a rebadged and reskinned Vaillant, rather than completely new. Though surely you don’t build a new factory just to fit the exterior cladding? Maybe they are assembling the whole thing, using Vaillant designs and, perhaps, components?
@IvanOpinion I’ll look into it. Could be a manufacturing joint venture.
I’ll be very curious to see how your visit pans out with Aira. Please keep us updated.
@Mars Will do.
I’m hoping they will be a good compromise between Octopus and Heat Geek. Heat Geek are really impressive and I’m convinced would give me a really good system, but they cost £10k more than Octopus. The decision isn’t just about money, but I can’t say money is no object. Although I’d probably save a bit more electric with HG, there’s no way I’d recoup £10k over the life of the heat pump. Octopus are staggeringly cheap, but they have overestimated my heat loss and are specifying a pump that is too powerful, so it cannot modulate enough to be efficient during autumn and spring.
It will be interesting to see if Aria are any better than Octopus. They are certainly slick with the marketing and the product aesthetics, but, as highlighted in this thread, they might be prioritising easy install and maintenance over optimal performance.
@IvanOpinion I suppose that as there are no free lunches in this world, the Aria price has to incorporate likely costs for the 15 years of annual servicing and maintenance contract and I think it is also a hire purchase or lease type of purchase without a great initial outlay isn’t it? Regards, Toodles.
@Toodles I think in the UK you pay for it all in the first year, but spread over 12 months. So the risk is more that you have prepaid for 15 years of maintenance, but if they go bust then you never receive it.
@IvanOpinion I got a very definitive reply from Aira this morning: “The Aira Heat pump is not based on or produced by Vaillant."
Black and white. So it’s their own unit.
@Mars Or bronze, copper or summat! 😉
@Mars That’s a shame, as it introduces more risk that the product might not be any good.
Which seems at odds with this article:
By switching to one of its heat pumps, which are currently built by German manufacturer Vaillant, Aira claims that households can save 25% on heating-related costs. The firm said production of its own-brand heat pumps would begin in Poland in 2024.
Mmm..
@Abernyte They used to use Vaillant until the factory started, which it apparently now has, as they no longer use Vaillant. I don’t see the contradiction.
This very thought has crossed my mind. The only heartening thing to take away is that they definitely work when installed correctly. We just need more competent installers.
There’s a lot of “inspired by", “timeless elements", “facilitated by", “leveraging" and “disrupting the market" in this marketing blurb. If I was playing bull***t bingo I’d have called out already.
Whilst I’m aware they want to sell the product, my main issue is that there is a lot of implication it’s a product designed for use in Scandinavia (which would be a good thing considering how robust they need their kit to be) but nothing in there that actually claims it directly.
“With its roots in Sweden…"
“The design, inspired by Scandinavian aesthetics…"
“Signature Scandinavian design…"
“Ensures a comfortable temperature even on the coldest days…" (how cold is coldest?)
It may well walk the walk too but all I’m seeing at the moment is smoke and mirrors riding in on the coat tails of real Scandinavian ASHP installations. The consumers making up the current UK heat pump market are confused enough already without having to wade through weasel words.
I had a good chuckle at this. 😉 The Aira YouTube product launch was targeting Germany, Italy and the UK markets, as a group launch of branded Vaillant product into those countries. Vaillant is made in Germany. There’s a lot of marketing BS around ‘Scandinavian countries are cold so we know how to make heat pumps work’. The HVAC Engineer in me shouts “it’s all about the absolute moisture content, stupid!" – Cold and dry Scandi weather is less arduous for a heat pump than the milder 100% humidity freezing fog perma-dank we get. The ice maker on my patio is testament to that.
I long to see an ASHP without a parasitic reverse cycle defrost method that robs heat of the hydronic circuit. Ebac has gone half way with a passive defrost feature, but is the only manufacturer I know to do so. I have a 30yr old Ebac CD30 industrial dehumidifier in my garage, still working, on R12 gas. It uses hot gas defrost, which is incredibly quick and efficient. They know a thing or two about this.
@AllyFish As I was reading the bumph about Scandi weather, I was thinking exactly the same! Apart from perhaps in Indonesia , are there any other such high humidity challenged environments? I suspect the UK is the highest in greater Europe anyway! Regards, Toodles.
I spent 4 years working in Pakistan, not too far from Karachi, on the Arabian Sea coast, where the humidity was so high that after rain there would be remaining puddles of water for several weeks because the water could not evaporate even in blazing sunshine.
The requirement there of course was for cooling rather than heating.
I do believe that the Vancouver area of Canada has a similar climate to the UK.
@Derek M Oh well, we are not alone then! Toodles.
To be frank, I hadn’t really thought about it like that but it makes perfect sense. That said, I think it perhaps even reinforces rather than detracts from the point I was making about the bandying about of language that implies suitability without actually claiming it.
In Terry Pratchett’s book “The Light Fantastic", there is a wonderful quote covering this very topic.
Oh that we could hold Marketing departments to the same standards.
The company are extremely tight lipped about what is inside the case. Their PR is to manufacture an “Aira branded product", so where have a company that owns an energy storage company, a battery cell manufacturer and a steel producer acquired the experience in HP design and manufacture ( since 2015) or is it going to be a Grant/Chofu type OEM clone? Enquiring minds would like to know, that’s all.
Completely agree on that. I’ll be quizzing the surveyor, though I imagine they won’t know.
He said they have based the kit on existing technology, but the controls and app are new.
It’ll be a fairly standard R290 ASHP internally I think, covers, panels and grilles might be customised. They all come with serial Modbus comms now, from which 3rd parties can create user or installer control apps for remote control and monitoring, etc. That was what Aira were showcasing in their release video – it was all about the App & not the product. Such is the world these days, but the App is only as good as what it is controlling, the heat pump, which itself is only as good as the installation is. There’s a lot of variables at play – and for Aira to offer a 15 year guarantee means they either have an unprecedented control of the variables, or their guarantee is riddled with get-out clauses, especially the performance and efficiency guarantees. The 54year old cynic in me favours the latter.
I would be very surprised if Aira design & launch a completely new ASHP product from the ground up.
Good point. I’ll ask to see a full copy of the wording. And get clarification whether they are guaranteeing efficiency.
The true test will come with time and results, but based on my discussions with Aira, they appear genuinely committed to improving the standards of heat pump installations in the UK and Europe. Their goal is to elevate the industry’s benchmarks, contrasting with Octopus, whose focus seemed to be more on quantity. Although the quality of Octopus’ installations remains unclear to me, Aira aims to not only scale up and drive high-volume installations but to also ensure these are of high quality. I’m hopeful for their success, as the industry could greatly benefit from major players stepping in to mitigate the issue of poorly executed installations.
I found the details of the warranty. I don’t see any unreasonable get out clauses. And it is insurance backed. The only issue I can see is that it looks like they don’t guarantee the SCOP.
“The Warranty includes:
the proper working of the air source heat pump; and
the air source heat pump’s ability to maintain minimum indoor temperature as follows:
Room
Temp. (˚C)
Living room
21
Dining room
21
Bedsitting room
21
Bedroom
18
Hall and landing
18
Kitchen
18
Bathroom
22
Toilet
18
The air source heat pump’s ability to maintain the above indoor temperature is conditional on the outside temperature not falling below the lowest expected temperature for the location where the air source heat pump is installed. You can find a list of the lowest expected temperatures in the Appendix to these Terms…
…If the air source heat pump fails to work properly within the Warranty Period, you shall contact us to inspect and arrange any necessary repairs. We may also contact you to inspect the air source heat pump system during the Warranty Period if we have reason to believe that there is an issue with it. We shall attempt to fix any identified issue at least three times. We may carry out any repairs or replacements that we deem necessary in order to fix the air source heat pump, which may include replacing the whole or part of the air source heat pump, adding or increasing the size of radiators, or changing pipework. You agree to allow us to carry out any and all inspections, repairs or replacements deemed necessary by us in order to get the air source heat pump working and complying with the Warranty. If you prevent us from doing this, it will invalidate the Warranty.
We reserve the right to use qualified technical personnel of our own or companies operating in the same industry.
If you do not report any defect to us as soon as reasonably possible and within two months from the date it was discovered, you shall not be able to ask us to fix the air source heat pump under the Warranty.
You must not allow any third parties to carry out any repairs or other work involving tampering with the air source heat pump, and if you do, this shall invalidate the Warranty.
If we are unable to fix the air source heat pump and get it working under the Warranty, we will refund the purchase price to you.
If you sell your home which has the air source heat pump in it, the Warranty can be transferred to a new owner if you notify the change of ownership to us by e-mail to contact@airahome.com or by sending us a letter in the post. The new owner is then bound by the provisions of these Terms."
How does that square with them using a 40 ltr buffer? I thought that buffers and LLH’s were the villains of the piece? Their marketing is undoubtably flashy and the word salad is second to none but why do I get an uncomfortable feeling that it is all fur coat and no knickers?
@Abernyte a fair point. As you’ve mentioned, there’s been a lot of talk and flashy marketing so far, so it’ll be interesting to see the outcomes once they begin installing heat pumps. While I have reservations about their use of buffers (which are part of their product lineup), hopefully, they’ll be utilised only when necessary.
Buffers can be effective in heat pump systems if installed and balanced properly. However, my observation is that most UK installers either lack the skillset or the willingness to do so. As far as I’m concerned, it’s better to omit them, saving homeowners money on unnecessary equipment, and potentially enhancing the system’s success.
Regarding Aira, their comfort guarantee means they must rectify any issues if the system fails to heat properly, especially if problems arise from the buffer or other installation aspects. It remains to be seen how they’ll perform once they start installing units and the extent to which they honor this guarantee. The fact that they’ve recruited some competent installers for senior roles is promising. The coming winter will be a significant test.
@Mars A guarantee of comfort levels is one thing but… is this going to be achievable at a decent COP? Is COP featured as much in their flashy presentation as comfort levels are? Cynically yours, Toodles.
@Toodles indeed. Just another piece of this complex heat pump puzzle.
@Mars It is a physical and practical impossibility to balance a buffer in all instances and with varying loads, flow rates, temperatures and compressor outputs. It is quite simple really, if you have 1 side fixed, and the other variable, or the 2 side vary independently, there is no chance of maintaining a balance. To balance the buffer, the flow rates, temperatures and load have to be identical, on both sides, all the time without exception. Any variation, causes a reduction in efficiency. Basic Thermodynamics.
@Brendon Uys is that Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics?
They do seem to hit what might be a sweet spot for a chunk of the market. I’ve had 5 quotes for a heat pump and they are cheaper than all except Octopus.
They have specified a buffer in their quote to me, so I’ve asked them to explain why it is better.
The Aira website now has an installation manual for the new ASHPs, which includes detailed specs:
Download direct:
..
Or find it here: https://www.airahome.com/en-gb/heat-pumps/outdoor-units
Caution everyone, this manual stipulates the installation of a buffer tank, so, the promised guaranty of supplying sufficient heat, may come at a very high price.
The unit is no quieter than any other unit out there (57 DB)
It says it has an “Operation limit temperature (TOL) -10ºC" then says “Operating limits -25°C to 45°C" Take your pick.
The 10 Kw does not comply with permitted development, it is 0.72 m3, therefore needs planning permission for every installation.
It is not on the ENA database yet so connection may be an issue.
Just pointing the facts out, there is a lot of sales BS out there.
You surprise me, @Brendon Uys 🥸
I’ve learned some more from my discussions with Aira.
They still fit Vaillants if the customer prefers. The warranty is reduced to 5 years, compared to 15 for the Aira own brand. For me, a Vaillant would be about £1k higher price.
The 8kW Aira ASHP has a minimum output of 3.8kW. I’m surprised that it can only modulate down by a half. This seems to raise concerns about cycling in mild weather.
Their reasons for specifying a buffer tank are to guarantee minimum volume in the system for defrost and stop regular start-stops of the system which affects COP and wear on the compressor. I’m going to ask for more details of how they ensure balanced flow rates both sides.
The customer cannot adjust the weather compensation curve. This seems to mean that if actual heat loss is different from the modelled heat loss (as it often will be), the weather compensation will be sub-optimal and the customer cannot do anything about this. Perhaps their system can automatically tweak the curve – I’m going to ask.
Although they quote a firm price based on a short inspection, you don’t find out what SCOP they expect until they do the heat loss survey. To do that, you need to accept the quote, so you need to sign up without knowing one of the most crucial aspects of the system design. However, you do have the right to cancel. They seem to think that once the design is done you would owe them £500 if you cancelled then, though I don’t think that’s the effect of their T&Cs. (To be fair, Heat Geeks require you to pay £350 for them to come and do the survey, so not that different.)
@IvanOpinion Thank you! Keen to hear more about the WC point. Quite strange that customers wouldn’t be able to adjust that!
This perhaps raises another concern about Aira. Their system does lots of clever stuff, including this remote monitoring, but also using weather forecasts to adjust the output in anticipation and working out your hot water usage and adjusting the HW production accordingly. That’s great, but it does mean that Aira customers are reliant on Aira continuing to run its servers and keep the app updated, for the 20-odd years of life of the ASHP.
I guess this is true for all ASHP manufacturers, because (AFAIK) all their controls run via apps and depend on servers on the cloud. But Aira are a start up, which I think means there’s a higher risk that they might not be around in 5 years time than for, say, Vaillant or Daikin. The repair and maintenance warranty on Aira is insurance backed, but I’m assuming there are no arrangements to ensure continuity of operation of the servers and updates of the app.
I quite agree. Everything Aira is touting seems to be focused on removing control from the customer’s hands. That’s worrying.
As for the other ASHP manufacturers, that’s not quite the same. Yes, they all provide IoT-enabled solutions with apps, APIs and cloud storage, but they are provided supplementary to what is basically a hardware choice on the customer’s part. Moreover, if a customer wants to remove reliance on the manufacturer’s remote systems they can do so by use of the on-site controls (either a box on the wall or talking via something like Modbus to control locally).
Aira’s approach feels to me only a hop, skip and a jump away from introducing a model whereby the installed kit is “leased" and never actually owned by the customer despite having to wear the up-front cost. Rather heavy-handed, it feels.
If the payments were spread over 10 years then that would be more reassuring, because there’s an incentive for Aira to continue to support installed machines and the customer would just stop paying if the support is withdrawn.
Fornax, who recently started advertising with us, have a ‘snugscription’ where you pay off your installation over 12 years. I think more companies will go down this route because they can the offer guarantees and be forced to uphold them.
@Mars Agree, definitely a trend. We’ve seen the same with solar PV. Some do it for batteries as well. Heat pumps is slightly less straightforward but will get there. I know in the Netherlands it was quite popular for a while.
That’s why I didn’t go for a Tado controller for my boiler control 7 or 8 years ago. Instead, I went with a Drayton miGenie internet-enabled controller. Despite my forward-thinking, Drayton have recently stopped support for this so now my App doesn’t work and reprogramming the timer and temperature is a right faff! My strategy now is to use Home Assistant and make sure I can control everything myself.
Like ‘Software as a a service’….
Precisely
@Mars I know nothing of this company Fornax other than what I have gleaned and from their website. They have been trading for less than 18 months and have capital of less than £80,000. They are selling a credit agreement funding package to purchase a heating system installed by a “local heating engineer" and are an appointed representative of an investment – seed capital product design company. There is no reference on their site to whose HP they are installing. How do you see them being forced to uphold a long term guarantee?
Like Aira they do have a flashy website though.
The challenge with offering a subscription or guarantee is that many installers now promise a guarantee on running costs linked to the Coefficient of Performance (COP). For example, they might promise a COP of 4.5, which sounds great. However, a high COP doesn’t necessarily translate to comfort. Sure, I could probably achieve a higher COP in our system if we targeted a room temperature of 17°C. It would be interesting to see if any installer is willing to guarantee a comfortable 21°C while maintaining a COP of 4 or higher.
Based on my experience, the answer is no, unless the house is abnormally well insulated. Heat Geeks do a guarantee of performance at MCS standard room temps (and charge handsomely for it), but their quote to me refers to a SCOP of 3.6, which is no higher than Octopus are projecting. So, they are setting a pretty low bar for performance. Aira don’t guarantee any SCOP (other than the MCS minimum of 2.8). But their marketing calculates cost savings using a comparison of 20000 kWh of gas vs 4500 kWh of electric. They don’t specify what level of efficiency of gas boiler they assume, but with 90% that would be 18000kWh of heat, so a SCOP of 4. They claim a SCOP of 4.7 for their own-brand units, but that is at 35 degrees average and they do not disclose the figures for other water temperature averages. I don’t know how realistic a 35 degree average is, for a normal house. Aira perhaps need to rein in their marketing people a bit, because when I detect BS in some of what they claim, I then get very sceptical about other claims, such as SCOPs and quality. An example of BS is the claimed cost savings over the life of the heat pump. Most of the savings turn out to relate to not paying for servicing of a gas boiler for 20 years. They calculate this based on £40 per month, but that must be a cherry picked figure. Most people will be paying more like half that for boiler cover. For those people, the savings will be about £4k lower.
@IvanOpinion where are you up to and have you made any further decisions?
The other contender is Octopus, who are more than £7k cheaper than Heat Geeks, so are the clear winner if cost is the only determinant. Even assuming Heat Geeks gave me a SCOP significantly higher, I’d never claw back the extra cost in power savings. I’m waiting for Octopus to do a resurvey, one of the purposes of which is to reconsider the heat loss (and thus the size of ASHP). If they agree to a lower power ASHP, they will have fixed one of my main concerns. My other main concern is that they include a buffer in their system, but is it worth £7k extra to get an unbuffered system? If Octopus insist on specifying an overpowered ASHP, I think that will make it easier for me to justify paying the extra.
On the whole marketing claims vs reality on performance I came across this Are ASHP datasheets reliable? | Crog.Uk which highlights another example where manufacturer marketing data sheets don’t seem to marry up with other figures like the MCS SCOP.
Interesting development: they have formed a partnership with Heat Geeks. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/airahome_airaheatgeek-cleanenergytech-decarbonisation-activity-7211360941412651008-5PCa?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop
They aren’t really specific about what it means, but I’m guessing heat geek will be training Aira staff. That makes Aira a more attractive proposition I think.
@IvanOpinion I’m actually scheduled to speak to Heat Geek next week, so will be sure to ask them about the specifics of the partnership.
The real difference in performance is gained by radiators and the size specified. Big rads low flow temps. Fully open system single zone. Save £7k run and see how low you can flow, if required spend another £1k upping the main living space radiators size. Save £6k
Can you get them to plumb as a 2 port buffer? Then you only get flow through the buffer if zones are closed, keep them open nothing flows through it?
But only if minimum turndown is significantly different. As a good system volume (50L plus) will support 6kW without short cycling, nearly all heat pump turndown to that level. They are also specifying a buffer, if it’s a 2 port all good, if 4 port lots of mixing likely and CoP hit.
Octopus may be relying on their tarifs to compensate for any ‘loss’ in efficiency. The risk of course is that tariffs change, and unless there are guarantees then, as usual, caveat emptor.
I would press for a 2 port buffer/volumiser in the return and ask about turn down to half the design loss, which is where the heat pump will be operating most of the time.
If octopus are still fitting Daikin then it’s worth being aware that Daikin appears to cap the output of some of their models in firmware, to give the appearance that they offer more variants than is really the case (and of course offer opportunities for price differentiation). The turn down power is not affected, so from an engineering point of view you might as well go for the highest power in any group of models which in fact have the same hardware. Octopus will know this so probably specify the ‘top’ end of each group anyway, and doubtless have a deal with Daikin that they are not charged extra for the different arrangement of bits in the firmware.
Thanks to you and Johnmo for the comments. In my case, Octopus have pulled out as their policy is not to do any work on flat or sloping roofs, which means there’s no viable path for the pipes from ASHP to cylinder. So Daikin oversizing no longer a problem. My choice is Aira or £4k extra for a Heat Geek firm (or a further £9k for another Heat Geek firm). But many of your comments apply equally to Aira, who currently specify buffers as standard.
Perhaps Heat Geek will convince them this normally unnecessary. I’m wondering how long it will take for Heat Geek training to impact on the Aira policies for system design. Mars, can you ask?
I hadn’t appreciated the distinction between 2 and 4 port buffers. Is there an explanation you can point me to? Can you tell from the photos whether the Aira buffer is 2 or 4?
By turndown, do you mean the lowest power that the ASHP can modulate down to? Aira have told me their 8kW model modulates to 3.7.
Yes that is correct
If you don’t mind me asking, are those prices after the grant? If so what are you getting for that money? I went self installation because I really couldn’t be bothered with all the over pricing going on. Think my total install came to about £3k. £1200 for heat of eBay, £900 for cylinder from city plumbing. Then mostly pipe, fittings and insulation. Assume you need radiators also?
Have you tried Grant? They use local plumbers to do the work and the design and commissioning is done by people that know what they are doing.there nothing magically about R290, I would be quite comfortable going R32. Design of system is the important bit.
@IvanOpinion I have wondered about this business of global warming potential of the various gases used. I think there is only a potential of releasing any of the gas into the atmosphere if there were a leak and that during normal use, no gas should be released. The actual quantity of gas used is, I am given to understand, relatively small. I’m also told that the gas is extracted safely at the end of life for the pump. Of course, I may be living in cloud cuckoo land and I have it completely wrong? Regards, Toodles.
@Toodles I was assuming the same thing. So, it might not be an issue. I’m not sure how often the refrigerant leaks.
@IvanOpinion I heard of a batch of Daikin heat pumps that left the factory short measured on R32, but, that was a case of underfilling rather than leakage I believe. Mind you, I do think twice before I light up the butane powered barbecue these days – so I suppose this is due to heightened awareness. 🫘😉. Regards Toodles.
Grant not looked at there current line up for a while so don’t know.
You need to have a leak for the global warming effect to take place. How many fridges leak their gas away in the 20 years, they sit in a kitchen? A monobloc heat pump should be no different it’s just a little bigger.
R290 is basically propane, so you have restrictions on location.
SCoP CoP are very similar R290 or R32, you can heat to 70 degrees with R290 and around 60 with R32. Do you need the additional 10 degs, most likely not. Good chance your paying an additional £1 to £1.5k for R290 over R32, no idea why as the components used to make the heat pump are almost identical.
Just to add a bit of my experience with Aira.
Their sales team is quite slick and very efficient. Within 1 week I had quote at a good price, and another week later a heat loss & design study was done. Everything was well considered and detailed . I was very excited to go ahead, as they seem to really know their stuff plus the comfort guarantee takes a lot of concern of the table. They specced the 8kw and a buffer tank. Very very good experience before install, way better than other (4 quotes + octopus). Very good price for a great looking system.
Installation was booked in promptly and 3 installation crews turned up on time, all good communication and friendly. Professional staff.
Then unfortunately things went south quite quickly…Within 30 minutes the install crew had identified a few flaws in the survey:
– surveyor forgot to add legs in the dimensions for the pump, adding 40cm. So the pump would now block my window view and opening.
– surveyor forgot about a few cable runs from ASHP to tank as well as a new consumer unit requiring its own power to the tank. Due to my house design (ASHP , water tank, buffer tank and grid meter all at opposite ends of the house ) those cable runs became impossible to run.
– bizarly the surveyor did not consider the internal pipework ; the installers thought all pipework to buffer had to be upgraded to 28mm , whereas surveyor though 22mm was enough).
They left after an hour . Real shame as I was keen on their system but the surveyor clearly needed more experience. I was never contacted after for any form of debrief/ what went wrong type conversation which I still find odd, as it must’ve cost them quite a lot.
So can’t comment on their system working, but other than not installing it was great.
@Pie_Eater I hope they wrote up the experience to use in their training sessions? Toodles.
By that point they are in a legally binding agreement I thought, they should have their MCS certificate withdrawn.
@Pie_Eater Did they walk away to re-asses or have they cancelled the contract? I have signed with Aira and have had my heat loss survey. They are working on the design and applying for planning on my behalf we need the 12kW unit.
@MikeH If I understood the original posting correctly, I would imagine all their installations would require PP if they mount the pumps on a 40 cm high stand!
And thinking about the roll-up of three crews, that must mean 6 or more engineers wasted half a day at least – on top of which, there would be the time taken to issue and load the stock required on site and all the appropriate paper work. I would imagine that that lot must come to at least £1,000. On top of all this, there would be the survey costs…..
Regards, Toodles
What’s that saying “measure twice, cut once". I wonder if the ‘surveyor’ received a promotion to ‘manager’?
@Pie_Eater of the 4 quotes you’ve had, how many heat loss surveys have you paid for?? This is the part I always struggle with, how can you obtain comparable quotes if you need to outlay 3-500 quid every time?!!
@squeakysim actually none !
octopus and Aira do it for free. the last one was via a friend . In some ways paying for a properly independent view (say heat geek) , would be preferable- the line between survey and wanting a sale is very thin I think.
@IvanOpinion you know what – maybe I did pay a deposit! I can’t remember now, I’ll check.
There is a saying along the lines of ‘Promoted up the chain to the level of their incompetency.’ 😉 Toodles.
Specifically, that is the Peter Principle, @Toodles, and it has a great degree of truth to it. Someone good at their job will be promoted, calling on different skills. If they are good in that new position, another promotion is likely and so it will continue until they are given a job they’re not good at. At that point, they won’t get another promotion, thereby adding another incompetent manager to the hierarchy and leaving them there.