The UK’s heat pump industry is being suffocated by a combination of poor training, overconfidence and a regulatory framework that has failed to raise the bar. If things carry on as they are, we’re heading for a farcical situation: government will need to follow the Boiler Upgrade Scheme (BUS) with a Heat Pump Upgrade Scheme (HPUS), spending yet more taxpayer money to go back and fix thousands of bodged or subpar installations. It would be a spoof scenario straight out of Hot Shots, where the rescue team is sent in to save the rescue team that was sent in to save the original rescue team. Except in this case, it’s not a comedy, it’s real homeowners’ money, real public funds and real carbon targets being wasted.
At the heart of the issue is the uncomfortable reality that too many installers are operating under the Dunning-Kruger effect (the psychological phenomenon where people with low ability overestimate their competence) while many others are still stuck somewhere in Noel Burch’s Four Stages of Competence (thank you @grahamf for bringing this to my attention). Together, this explains why installation standards remain so low, why so many homeowners are being let down and why trust in heat pumps is being damaged at the exact moment the technology most needs champions.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is easy to spot in this sector. Walk onto a job, listen to the installer and you’ll hear confidence, certainty and sales patter delivered with a straight face. But scratch the surface and you discover heat pumps that short cycle, radiators undersized for the flow temperatures being delivered, controls left at factory defaults and systems that never perform to the theoretical standards promised. These are not small mistakes. They are fundamental errors that condemn homeowners to higher running costs, colder rooms and overall disappointment. The installer, meanwhile, genuinely believes they’ve done a good job.
They don’t know what they don’t know.
And when their work is shielded by certification logos and paperwork, the homeowner often has no way of realising the truth until the bills arrive or the system fails to deliver comfort.
Layered onto that is Burch’s Four Stages of Competence. Far too many installers are still stuck in stage one: unconscious incompetence. They simply don’t know enough to grasp that they’re getting it wrong. A smaller group has moved into stage two: conscious incompetence. They recognise their shortcomings, but often don’t have access to the training or mentoring needed to move forward. A handful are at stage three: conscious competence, where they can deliver good work but only with constant focus and effort. Very few are at stage four: unconscious competence, where design and installation excellence comes as second nature. Those that are in that top bracket stand out, but they are rare and they are drowning in a sea of mediocrity.
Training is meant to provide the bridge between these stages, yet it is woefully inadequate. An installer can attend a short course (usually a couple of days), tick some boxes and walk away with a certificate that suggests they’re competent, when in reality they’ve never had to design or commission a real-world system to a high standard.
Even respected training programmes stop short of consistently preparing people to install heat pumps that hit SCOPs above 3 in the field. Knowledge is fragmented, best practice isn’t enforced and the industry’s obsession with paperwork and compliance forms does nothing to improve outcomes inside actual homes. It’s little wonder that average seasonal efficiencies across the UK remain stuck around 2.7 when properly designed and installed systems could and should be performing far higher.
The tragedy is that none of this is hidden. Homeowners are living with the consequences every day, and forums like Renewable Heating Hub are full of stories that paint the same picture: buffer tanks used as a crutch for poor system design, emitters never upgraded to suit lower flow temperatures and installers walking away from cold houses because “the heat pump is working as designed” despite there being no planning or design.
It’s a wild situation and in reality the industry is littered with unconscious incompetence masquerading as expertise, and there is no meaningful consumer protection in place to shield people from it. MCS certification, which should be the gatekeeper of standards, does not guarantee quality. It guarantees only that the paperwork has been filled in.
So what does this mean for homeowners who are considering a heat pump? It means that due diligence isn’t optional, it’s absolutely essential. You cannot take an installer’s word at face value, no matter how convincing their pitch or how many badges they flash on their website. You cannot assume that MCS certification means your system will be designed correctly. And you certainly cannot assume that price is an indicator of quality.
Instead, you have to become your own investigator. Demand to see examples of the installer’s work. Ask for performance data. Speak directly to their past customers. Look at the results they’ve achieved in practice, not the promises they make on paper. If they claim SCOPs above 3.5, ask them to prove it. If they tell you their systems always deliver comfort, ask to speak to a homeowner who can confirm it. And if they can’t provide that evidence, walk away. The risks are simply too high to gamble on trust alone.
This might sound harsh, but it’s the only way to cut through the fog of overconfidence and mediocrity that surrounds the heat pump industry. The incentives at play (government grants, certification schemes, manufacturer partnerships) all mean that it is too easy for weak installers to slip through the net, present themselves as competent and leave homeowners to foot the bill when reality bites. Unless and until the system is restructured to actually reward quality and penalise failure, homeowners have to protect themselves.
There are excellent installers out there. There are people who have mastered the craft, who can design and commission systems that deliver comfort, efficiency and reliability year after year. But they are not the majority. They are not even close. And the only way to find them is to look beyond the words, the certificates and the claims and examine the evidence with your own eyes.
The uncomfortable truth is that the current heat pump industry is not designed to succeed. It is designed to churn, certify and sign off, not to deliver excellence. Until that changes, homeowners will need to be sceptical, inquisitive and ruthless in choosing who they let through the door. The Dunning-Kruger effect and the Four Stages of Competence explain why so many installers believe they’re doing good work when they are not. The question for homeowners is whether you want to be the next case study in failure, or whether you’re willing to dig deeper to find the installer who actually knows what they’re doing.
And here lies the greatest challenge of all: how do you, as a homeowner, separate the wheat from the chaff? Every installer has a couple of happy customers they’ll gladly parade in front of you. But those references tell you almost nothing. If an installer has fitted ten systems and only two are excellent, four are average, and four are outright failures, you can be sure you’ll only ever be introduced to the glowing two. The dissatisfied majority are kept firmly out of sight.
That’s why due diligence has to go much deeper. Don’t stop at speaking to one or two handpicked customers. Push harder. Ask how many systems they’ve installed in total and how many you can see. Ask to visit several homes, ideally chosen by you, not by the installer. Look for consistency across their portfolio. Because consistency is the hallmark of competence. One or two good installs can be luck. Ten good installs in a row is proof of skill.
It’s not an easy task. It takes time, persistence and a willingness to be sceptical in the face of polished sales patter. But given the sums involved, the disruption to your home and the risks of ending up locked into years of poor performance, it’s the only defence homeowners have right now. Until this industry is forced to raise its game, the burden falls on you.
If you want a heat pump that performs, keeps you warm and keeps your bills down, you need to be relentless in checking, questioning and verifying. Because until the system changes, the difference between a dream outcome and a costly nightmare comes down to how well you vet the person holding the spanner.
Can I just add to the above that there are many on here who have successful installs.
There are also quite a few who are willing to try to provide simple advice to help sort the wheat from the chaff, if potential purchasers post a summary of a few simple details of their house and the system proposed. Of course without seeing it and doing an independent design there is no guarantee, but the majority of problems we see here are down to a very few simple things which are easily spotted before committing.
@JamesPa, excellent point.
And it’s also worth sharing what you said or asked an installer that was the moment when you decided “you’re hired" or “see you later".
@Mars like @JamesPa, I had a list of test questions:
What SCOP will you design for? Can you show me evidence of achieving that SCOP on your installed systems? I hoped for a number above 4, or at least in the high 3s.
What flow temperature will you design for? I was looking for no more than 45C.
How will you control the performance of the system? I hoped they would say “with weather compensation”.
Do you intend to install a buffer tanks? I hoped they would say “no”.
How many zones do I need? I hoped for 1.
How many heat pumps do I need? Our house came out borderline between 1 and 2 heat pumps on the heat loss calculation. I was determined to have only 1.
The installer that I chose actually told me that I would have to use weather compensation and run the system with a single zone open loop. He said I could have TRVs but only in bedrooms and one sunny room that gets very hot.
He presented this as an ultimatum and looked slightly nervous, as if he was expecting a big pushback from me. This was music to my ears. I readily agreed to all of it and we have got on very well.
Thats what happens when you ask Mars to recommend a supplier!
For reasons to do with how things panned out I went through two ‘phases ‘. In the first phase I was fairly ‘open minded’ (ie I didnt discard installers particularly quickly), but didn’t proceed. By the time I had got to the second phase I knew what I wanted and told each installer contacted as part of the brief. The following were immediate ‘see you later’ signals in this second phase
It really came down to the basics!
I have a feeling that designing a retrofit heat pump system for a most typical, tolerably insulated, reasonably normally constructed houses of perhaps 250sq m or less (ie the vast majority of our housing stock) is actually quite simple* namely:
Unfortunately (based on what is reported here) some installers:
Thus we end up with (some) oversized systems with buffers and controls that are either unsuitable or not properly set up. Throw in a bit of failure on (7), and its a recipe for disaster.
*in principle – I concede that there are onsite challenges to solve, but the basics, which is what seems to go wrong, is really quite simple.
Unfortunately your post is too accurate and the product is gaining a poor reputation. I often say to people if Panasonic, Mitsubishi & Samsung etc make them surely they work, and they do its completely as you say Mars, the installer being the issue. Its a multitrade product and has many transfering across into fitting HPs and with grants it draws in crowds of ‘fitters’ who often work to a price or bonus with the system being sold to the customer through a call centre. I say never entertain those calls, do your own research and get a few quotes, never buy from the typical old school salesperson, we give the info required and answer questions and even take a demo unit or show them a working system, you then make your own decision and we never follow up quotes.
wrong tense I fear, judging by what I hear at my local pub (which is, after all, important as it affects people’s choices).
Of course the oil industry and a section of the media are amplifying the bad and attenuating the good to assist.
Excellent point.
Its perhaps surprising that the manufacturers haven’t stepped in, fed up with their product being abused.
and ‘grant chasers’ who have no intention of staying in the business once they have completed the harvest. Solar panels were the same in the early days, but more difficult to mess up.
@ASHP-BOBBA I agree that as an installer you probably don’t want to be the cheapest. There is plenty of work out there. If you charge more, you can afford to work more carefully and do a better job. Of course, a good installation benefits you as well as the customer – fewer call-backs, fewer complaints, less hassle, another good customer reference.
The aspect that mystifies me is why an installer would be motivated to install a buffer tank, duplicate control system, or anything else that adds complexity. The complexity adds cost, which surely translates into an increased price and the risk of losing the job?
Installers seem to perceive that buffer tanks and other potentially unnecessary design features reduce risk. However, as a general engineering principle, complexity usually increases risk.
I wonder how much installers typically learn from their installations. Margins in domestic work can’t be that high, so can you afford to make follow-up visits? Obviously, if the customer complains, you will deal with the complaint, but if the customer is slightly unhappy, he might not say anything.
My installer tells me that a slightly nerdy member of his team sits at home most evenings checking the performance of systems they have installed. That is invisible to me. Similarly, I am all over our system, fine tuning it. That is probably invisible to him. Happily the system is working so well that, after a few early exchanges and one return visit, we don’t need to communicate at all.
Some interesting comments here on buildhub. If SimonD is correct in his analysis/statements it pretty much explains everything (bad) we observe.
We should also consider the importance of the manufacturer’s role in setting design guidelines for installers.
As an example, Grant UK seem to recommend low loss headers in this case study on their web site:
https://www.grantuk.com/about/news/heat-pump-and-low-loss-header-are-a-winning-combination/
It is entitled: “Heat pump and low-loss header are a winning combination" and dated July 25, 2022
“A Grant Aerona³ air source heat pump has been installed as part of a new heating system for a bungalow which has been refurbished in Kent. Alongside the heat pump, a Grant low-loss header has also been fitted which is designed to support the efficient, reliable operation of the Aerona³…
“Alongside the heat pump, NCC Southeast Ltd also fitted Grant’s combined low-loss header/volumiserwhich is creating hydraulic separation, separating the heat pump from the rest of the system and helping to maintain a correct flow rate through the heat pump unit.
“Installing a low-loss header and using it for hydraulic separation is our preferred method when installing a heat pump system,” continues Neil. “It does involve a bit more planning during the early phase of an installation but the benefits it delivers are worth this extra time. Provided space inside a property permits, we fit a low-loss header but when this is not possible, Grant’s external volumiser serves a system well when space is limited.”
@GrahamF I think in the last 3 years and due to heavy social media coverage many manufacturers and designers now design buffers out, in 2019 when I designed a 400m2 open loop full UFH system on 2 ecodans with no buffers and submitted, installed and commissioned the system we were considered outside the norm, taking risks and were told it would not work by the manufacturer as like many they designed them in back then. My only response at that time was “heat loss is heat loss, if I put the heat in it and can move the water evenly around the building I don’t need a buffer and it will keep it warm" don’t mistake buffers for anything than in the way and causing distortion. This system runs today and runs well.
You see, for 26 years I have been designing and installing HP chillers which are the same as very large Ecodan’s and just about every other ASHP for domestic with a couple of extra controls on top and you know what, we did not even put low loss headers or buffers on 200kW systems so why would we on 10kW system? these systems were design with balanced return valves and pumps specially selected to handle the curve, now these return valves were a bit more sophisticated than what we use on domestic design today but in theory the same as balancing rads by hand. The difference is I would employ a specialist water commissioning engineer to balance every leg and reg return valve to design rather than this touchy feely hand on rad and call it a commission. I would also have to pay them around £2,400 to commission this water flow but it was worth it on a 7 story building.
We AAC commission your home like a commercial building, we measure the F+R leg + M Av value of every rad, we IR camera to prove even flow and saturation as well as we data log performance of every rad all included in the installation and thats why we take AV 5 days to complete an installation as day 5 is 7hrs to commission up to 12 rads.
The issue is, we need engineers better than the manufacturer for application, its the designer that is supposed to know the building after the heat loss survey, the designer is advising you best kit, best application and best practice and the designer should be assisting and checking the engineers installation. I understand why the manufacturers specify a buffer as it will largely protect their equipment from an incorrectly designed and installed system connected to their HP but the manufacturer never visits the house after the installation.
It worth remembering as many complain about the fee, but the aprox £300 you will pay for the heat loss survey and design is your best asset right at the beginning of the journey and before you have committed to the larger installation, if that paperwork says you need X rads and X flow with X performance and you accept this design, as long as the system performs this way you have exactly what you signed up for, at this stage you can ask as many questions as you would like about application, performance timings and even estimates on running costs with small caveats.
I agree the advert is misleading to a point as there is no need to advertise it like its the best solution if it is only one solution that suits the manufacturer but most of what they say is true. A buffer does ensure correct flow through the HP as the house circuit cannot restrict it now, it often does make it more reliable (HP ONLY) they are not talking about the whole system here, and efficient yes as whom decides whats efficient is? Anything over 100% is efficient so even if it only generates a SCOP of 2 it is still efficient just not as much as a 4+. The trade off here is better protection for the manufacturers equipment V a slightly more expensive cost to run for the home owner. We should also not get hung up on SCOPS of 4+ 5+ and so on, each system should be a good outcome for a reasonable price with the customer driving preference. If you want top end SCOPS and lowest runnings costs then this can be designed in but will be bigger rads, larger pipe, more of a retrofit. If you want an av but good performance go with the biggest providers that design everything at 55 deg C and will not budge as it makes the installation as cheap as it can but reasonable cost to run an finally if you want to go with the cheapest for capital cost just double check they are offering you a reasonable installation that will run at a reasonable cost and hope they are much cheaper as they have no overheads or there is some kind of promotion rather than its all done on day rate speed, subbed out or corners cut.
I cannot see where a buffer would fit in to a domestic system unless you had to place undue stress on the HP primary water circuit but this is just because the system works better when the HP has control of the hole house circuits and can modulate the flow across the building or better maintain a constant flow curve and these systems work better and more efficiently when they modulate. This is the magic of this technology, how it can move from delivering 3kW to 10kW on a demand curve that follows some clever math to track heat loss. This is steady-state heating or what we try to target is steady-state but you need to be one of the best to get it near perfect. Our definition of a good ASHP system installation is one that can be designed to perform as a quasi-stead-state heating system at a pre-set desired temperature across the building at is designed criteria.
Now how you find a designer that is capable of this level of design and application eludes me, perhaps a register of excellence “MCS" or more badges, I joke we don’t need more badges thats for sure.
I had fun writing this, I could have written 12 more pages 🙂
@ASHP-BOBBA fascinating explanation, thanks.
I have a physics degree and worked as an IT architect for 40 years, so I can understand this kind of system quite well. My key questions for potential installers were 1. Do you use buffer tanks? And 2. How do you control the performance of the system? My chosen installer insisted on open loop and weather compensation, so we got on very well!
The customer’s problem with paying for a heat loss calculation is that we want competitive quotes from 2-3 potential installers. If we pay all three to do this, then it costs a total of £900-1200. I paid one company, but did not choose them.
I did my own heat loss calculations, because I didn’t trust any installer to get it right. One installer initially estimated 24kW, until I pushed back. Then, he spotted an error in the model, which reduced it to 15kW!
I produced my own list of radiator replacements. My installer had his list and we installed the superset of the two. He also installed FRVs, which I am sure have made the system work better.
Arguably, I spent too much money on radiator upgrades, but now I have a radiator system with a flow temperature that will probably be below 40C at well below the outside design temperature. I will probably never recover the investment, but I will still feel good about the efficiency of the system.
@GrahamF I understand, unfortunately I think the only way to know you are starting with a good company or designer is if they are recommended to you by someone you trust, not much chance of having 3 companies recommended by 3 people you trust.
In your case it sounds like you have a good understanding so you could ask the right questions and make a good informed judgment.
@GrahamF, what was your own heat loss calculation in the end?
@ASHP-BOBBA, your point about design being the cornerstone of a successful system cannot be overstated. When there’s no proper heat loss, no clear plan and no methodical commissioning process, things unravel fast, and the disruption for the homeowner can be enormous. This happened to us two weeks ago as part of our heat pump retrofix: no design, no plan, no objective. Finger to the wind stuff and the end result was catastrophic. More details to follow in the weeks to come.
I think what you’ve highlighted here (that the manufacturer’s “default” recommendations are largely a safety net to protect their kit, rather than an optimal solution for the home) is absolutely spot on too. It underlines why the designer and commissioning engineer are so critical, because they’re the ones responsible for ensuring the whole building actually works as intended. I also believe manufacturers have zero to no confidence in the current installer base, hence the safety nets.
Your approach to commissioning, treating even a domestic install like a commercial job with IR checks, balancing and datalogging, is exactly what sets great installs apart from the rest. It’s reassuring to see examples where systems are designed to run in steady-state without unnecessary buffers, and where efficiency is engineered in from the ground up.
For homeowners, the lesson is clear: a few hundred pounds spent on a robust, independent design and survey at the start is the best investment they can make. It avoids all the heartache and wasted expense later, provided you are able to manage and oversee that the design is applied in reality.
@Mars Agreed, I await the details of what went wrong with your retrofit as we work on rebuilds often and they can be tricky.
Agreed. There’s tricky, and then there’s diving into a project with no plan or forethought… just slinging stuff at the wall to see what sticks. That kind of approach doesn’t just fail, it causes damage and, in our case, total heating failure.
@Mars oh dear, very sorry to hear about that. I hope you get it sorted soon.
I was so hoping that the recent work would give you the heating system you want and deserve. I hope there’s a round 2 to fully sort it out .
@Mars Oh no, that sound like a disaster, sorry to hear that.
It certainly has been a testing time… but we’re almost there!
Some more interesting comments on the state of, and changes in, the industry by SimonD (who is obviously a professional installer) over on the other place. Worth a read. Ignore the picture below, if you click on it you go to the correct place, not sure what RHH has substituted this for the link.
https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/45343-anyone-used-bpc-for-ashp-odd-statement-from-them-re-ashp-sizing-part-f/page/2/#findComment-633986
and
https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/45343-anyone-used-bpc-for-ashp-odd-statement-from-them-re-ashp-sizing-part-f/#findComment-633824
We’re going to do a full retrofix in spring with @Pirate Rich at the helm… there’s a mountain of planning to get it 100% right and we don’t want to commence as we head into the heating season.
@Mars I hope you have at least a partially working heating system for the winter?
@Pirate Rich spent another full day with us today, joined by @Chas Barry, working tirelessly to get all the air out of the system. It was an incredible effort, and we’re hugely grateful for their time, dedication and determination to get things done properly. They also repiped much of the internal system and added a fill-and-flush valve along with an air release valve.
If more heating engineers approached their work with the same attitude and care as Rich and Chas, the heat pump industry in the UK would look very different indeed.
Thanks to them we’ll have heating this winter.
PS – here’s what we were left dealing with: https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/why-air-release-valves-and-deaerators-are-non-negotiable/
Well, what a day it’s been! But, I think we cracked the nut that multiple installers haven’t been able to so far. Yes, there is still some work to do, but at least you will have a system that will be operational and virtually silent in the coming days until we can revisit a heat pump system next year.
Thank you to you and Kirsten for looking after us today while we designed, re-piped, and refilled the system to remove all the air. Sadly, it transpired that the UFH manifold is in less than good shape, so something that will need to be addressed to have a heating system with longevity.
@Pirate Rich there’s a lot to do and plan, and the wish list is getting longer and longer, but I feel more positive than I have in a long time that next year we will finally an efficient and well designed system. It’s going to be a monumental project this spring. Epic!
@Mars please can you me? I am trying to get stories from other individuals who have had poorly designed heat pumps installed which are either not fit for purpose or costing a lot of money. I want to get more protection for the consumer and my local MP is supportive of taking this to parliament. My experience was shocking and we’re about to enter our third winter with a heat pump that is undersized so will cost a fortune not to warm the house! This is not about being negative about heat pumps but shining a light on installers who should not be getting the grant!
@Fiona, I really don’t want to disappoint you, but I have to be honest… many homeowners have gone down this route before with MPs and government departments, and unfortunately, we’re yet to see a meaningful outcome. The system tends to absorb complaints across all levels rather than act on them. That said, your determination is admirable, and it’s exactly what’s needed if we’re going to keep the pressure on. There are no shortage of people on these forums that would love to see action. Do you just want homeowners in your county/constituency?
As James said, let’s see if we can help you take some direct action with your own system too. Would you mind starting a new topic outlining your installation, system specs, brand and size of heat pump, and what’s going wrong? There’s a lot of people on here that can help identify design issues and that might strengthen your case when you speak to your MP or anyone else.
I was especially frustrated with the lack of knowledge at essentially all levels when I was trying to get to grips with the system that originally came with our new build flat.
At first, when I was reasonably ignorant to the design considerations required in a heat pump install, and before I started thinking about things too much, it all seemed reasonable when it was sold to us.
We’d have a small heat pump inside (no box on the external wall was presented as this big bonus), with a backup electric boiler which should ‘basically never be needed’, and the whole thing would be ‘hot water priority’ so that we’d never be short of hot water even on the coldest of days. Even before we moved in, I started to get a bit worried after seeing the actual system in person, however.
When we moved in we ended up having the plumbers around dozens of times to look at the system after multiple days of cold showers and £20+ daily bills in a supposedly cheap-to-run flat. It was at this point that the illusion of competence quickly wore off.
The site manager himself told us that ‘heat pumps don’t work’, so he didn’t know what we expected him to do about it. It was built to spec, so at that point it was no longer his problem. The plumbers (and they were plumbers, not heating engineers) had been given a design and just copy-pasted it into every flat in the development. The underfloor heating had been designed by actual engineers, but at no point were they told anything about the rest of the system. They just listed flow rates and temperatures and that was their job done.
Our system had every option left at the factory default. The flow temperature to the underfloor loops was 55°C, and the tiled bathroom floors could become uncomfortable to stand on if left running. When I asked exactly how the system was ‘hot water priority’, the plumbers looked like deer in the headlights and shrugged their shoulders. They admitted that they hadn’t a scooby how the system worked, how it was meant to work, who had designed it, or anything really. They just piped stuff together. The electricians followed some wiring diagrams. Then everyone just crossed their fingers and hoped for the best.
But what really bothers me is that the other new residents in the development, those without my technical mindset, were being fed absolute rubbish. They’d go into the other residents’ flats with a smile and an air of authority, listen to their concerns about how much it was costing them, then they’d just tighten up some pipes or something, say ‘that should help!’ and saunter off to the next one.
By the time it came to deciding on an installer for our replacement system, I had already learned how to do a full heat loss calculation by hand, as well as cross-checked my results with actual energy use over time. I had managed to get hold of the design and spec of our underfloor heating system by buttering up one of the attending engineers (the developer would not allow me to see it), and checked that what was installed matched what was specified through use of a thermal camera. I had redone all the flow rate calculations based on my calculated heat losses, and then finally redone everything in Heat Punk as a final check of my numbers. I had rebalanced the underfloor heating based on the heat loss and properly calibrated the boiler temperature and mixing valve, none of which had been done when the system was handed over to us.
I’d even gone so far as to jury-rig a kind of EMS using Alexa, SmartThings and Tasker. My phone would tell me every hour, based on the outside temperature, just how much energy shortfall the flat had, and how much energy I should let the boiler use to catch up.
I’d been through pretty much every Heat Geek video, as well as read every publicly available bit of info on the design process and had come up with my own set of requirements:
Remove zone valves, move to open loop.
No buffer, no low-loss header, not even a volumiser.
Heat loss of less than 3kW.
Keep existing hot water heat pump.
We already had the underfloor heating installed, a 300L tank, and the only plumbing that was needed was the piping connecting all the new bits to the old bits. It should be a simple job, really.
That didn’t stop more than one of the heating engineers we asked to quote for it from trying to make it sound like the most complicated install ever and quoting us £15k or more. The heat losses we got also came in all over the shop, with one coming in at a little over 7kW. Bonkers. How a competent heating engineer looked at that number when it came out of the calculator and thought ‘yeah, seems reasonable’, I have no idea. I reverse-engineered their numbers by comparing different rooms and found that they’d somehow used u-value of internal uninsulated stud walls for all the external walls. To be fair to them, they did redo the calculations when I pointed out the error, but how is someone less technically minded than me meant to notice a mistake like that, let alone provide evidence to argue against it?
In the end, the engineer who did the install agreed with all my suggestions and I felt like things were all going right. Despite that, we were nearly left with a system with the wrong temperature probes installed, and which didn’t have any expansion vessel plumbed into the heat pump’s piping, issues which were left to me to notice. I have sympathy for the installer as he was installing a unit he’d never seen before, but we had actual registered Worcester Bosch engineers on site too for the commissioning, and they didn’t pick up on those issues either.
The issues I noticed were all fixed quickly and without any extra cost, but if trained professionals can make these kinds of mistakes, what hope do homeowners have?
@Fiona
I admire your optimism in regard to what your MP might achieve.
Just to reiterate, if you want to please post some details of your system and house to see if any suggestions can be made for improvements that could be easily implemented.
It’s pretty unlikely, albeit not impossible, that your heat pump is undersized and much more likely that some changes to settings or how you use it could improve things.
Thanks both for your responses. We have paid for an independent report (the warranty company asked for this) to ascertain what’s wrong with the system. There appear to be a number of issues the biggest one being it’s apparently undersized as it’s a Nibe so loses kws when it gets below a certain temp? The warranty company have now said they won’t cover us as the system wasn’t working before the installers went into administration!
With regards to my MP he says it doesn’t need to be people from my own constituency. I’ve now got an installer who is keen to try and make a difference. It would be great to get people from both sides with evidence of the damage poor installers are doing.
I know I might be onto a hiding to nothing but feel so angry about what’s happened to us and how helpless we have felt, I hope more people will start speaking up and hopefully we can make a difference.
I do just want to make it clear that this is not about saying air source heat pumps are useless, it really isn’t and I know if installed by people who know what they are doing and care, they can be fantastic.
@Fiona everything you’ve said resonates with what we hear from so many homeowners.
Please be careful with the installer who’s offered to “make a difference” or fix your system. We recently had that experience ourselves, and the so-called fix made the situation far worse. Before anyone touches your system, make absolutely sure they can show you detailed evidence of what they plan to do, why it’s necessary and examples of similar systems they’ve successfully corrected. It’s not about being sceptical… it’s about protecting yourself from another round of expensive disappointment.
As for the warranty company’s stance, that’s a ridiculously familiar story. The moment an installer folds, the warranty often becomes worthless. This is one of the biggest structural failings in the current setup: warranties, consumer codes and certification bodies all point fingers at each other, and the homeowner ends up stuck in the middle.
Having said that, was your original installer register with HIES? Check your paperwork. You’ll either have a certificate from HIES or RECC.
You’re absolutely right to separate this issue from the technology itself… heat pumps can be brilliant when properly designed, sized and commissioned. The problem isn’t the tech, it’s the lack of accountability and competence across parts of the industry.
If you can, please start a new topic and share your independent report (you can redact any personal details). That’ll help us to look more closely at what’s been done and see if we can suggest some real steps forward.
You’re doing the right thing by speaking up, and even if progress is slow, every story like yours adds weight to the case for reform.
@Mars We defiantly need to come up with a way a customer can employ us with confidence, what do we as a top retro-fix company say to a customer that is disheartened from past experience of a poorly installed or performing installation to assure them what we will do will resolve the issues as best as possible?
The biggest barrier I see customers having and this is from experience, is good heat pump companies do not want to touch others installations through fear of not being able to resolve all of the issues and the customer is already unhappy or to be tarnished with the same brush. So far we have fixed around 14 full systems and currently are working on 3 more, 3 of them (not the current 3) have been complete new installations at the customers costs and the others range from minor changes to 1/3.
Not to detract from my 1st statement, I am constantly wondering what we can say or display better than 5 star reviews on the usual well known trade platforms. We have now built a working show room so customers can come touch, feel and hear the heat pumps in action, we even went as far as pushing these systems to the limits with UFH in the walls, fast recovery on DHW and HR ventilation to match heat losses with an explanation and tour on how everything works. We get invited to so many review platforms at a cost to us but you know what they kind of work for us if we are paying them , perhaps the best platform might be one funded by the customers for the customers then that company wont run the risk of loosing the HP company for displaying bad reviews. Same with the badges, imagine a badge of excellence funded by customers and the HP companies only get it based on quality of work audited, not big companies that win awards for punching out 2000 HP a year at speed, they can do this because they have funding for scale, give me 2m and I can advertise heavy, grab the most installs and punch out at scale but that will run the risk of watering down the standards.
The future is the 20,000 small heating, AC and plumbing companies getting trained and converting and expanding into renewables whether we like it or not, it seems to me it would make sense we had a badge of excellence that was not purchased by us HP companies, not funded by us and a reasonable amount of jobs audited to firm up the standard but this all costs money that no one wants to pay for no doubt.
Still thinking but positively!
@ASHP-BOBBA wow that is such a professional approach. I am really impressed!
@GrahamF Thank you, it means a lot.
@Fiona I am really sorry to hear about your awful situation. There are few things worse than being really cold in your own home.
As @JamesPa has suggested, I wonder if people on this forum might be able to provide some kind of check on your review report. If you were willing to share some information, then you might find people’s comments would be helpful.
In particular, the statement that your existing NIBE heat pump is undersized is worth confirming, as a replacement would be expensive. NIBE have a good reputation and come from Sweden, so I would be amazed if their heat pumps worked badly in cold weather.
I am just a customer like you, but I have a system that is working well and a physics degree, so I have at least a theoretical understanding of the subject. I would be more than happy to review any documentation, if that would be helpful.
I agree with all that @Mars says above but particularly this.
By far your best guarantee is peer review through this forum. If you are willing to post any reports or proposals you will get helpful comments and the rationale will be interrogated. That’s worth a lot on my book at least.
I’ll create a new post with the report as alternative opinions are always welcome (plus we really don’t want to pay for a new system).
If anyone is interesting in trying to bring change (and hopefully we can) I’ve created a Facebook group https://www.facebook.com/share/g/16PQ45rHCN/?mibextid=wwXIfr
Where I am hoping to get my ‘20’ people who are willing to share their experiences of issues they’ve faced so I go back to my MP to talk about next steps.
Thanks all
@Fiona obviously redact any sensitive information.
@Fiona, you can also send me the report if you’d like for me to take a look: @Frank.co.uk">editor@Frank.co.uk
But please remove all sensitive information you don’t want on the internet if you do post it.
In short, simply be honest – as, it sounds, you are already.
That’s very easy to say, of course, and more difficult to put into practice appropriately. You want the customer to understand that not every problem is fixable – at least not easily – before any work is started, but you don’t want to come across as the proverbial tradesman whistling through his teeth. However, if you can justify (with a simple explanation) each of the faults you find with a dodgy install you’re presented with, the honesty alongside the understandability goes a long way.
@Majordennisbloodnok Over the years, we have employed various generations of plumbers, heating engineers, electricians, decorators etc. etc. etc. Once having found a ‘good un’ we have been careful to hang on to them like gold dust! The only problem is that when young, they are often mobile and move on or, when more mature, they then eventually retire! (And we start all over again to find another ‘good un’). Honesty and competence are 99% of the requirement I find. Regards, Toodles.
I couldn’t agree more.
We stuck with one particular garage for all repairs and servicing of all our cars for about 30 years. By happy chance, way back when, when we moved out of South London where the garage was based, we discovered the owner of the business lived close to where we moved to, so we maintained the relationship with him collecting a car in the morning and returning it in the evening. The only reason the relationship came to an end was that he finally retired. That garage’s work was consistently excellent, but just as importantly they often told us of things that were starting to wear out but didn’t need fixing immediately. As a result, we were able to trust that if they said something was important (or expensive, or both) then that was true. The mutual respect that fostered was priceless – as you say, gold dust.
When we had our heat pump installed, we were impressed by the company’s work ethic and competence – so much so that we recommended them to our neighbours. In that visit, the installer advised our neighbours about basic things they should do regarding insulation and so forth, and that they wouldn’t feel comfortable installing anything until the basics of the house were addressed. As soon as I heard they’d turned business down for the right reasons, I started looking at them in the same way as I viewed my car mechanics. Every time since then that they have visited us – generally for the yearly maintenance, but once to fix an underfloor heating problem they’d inherited from our house’s previous owners – they have shown the same open, honest, professional attitude, so I’m nurturing that long-term relationship for as long as I can.
@Majordennisbloodnok I agree, its tricky to balance an estimate when you don’t have x-ray vision. I found over the last 25 years of being a manager and a Director and owner that if you are open and honest its installs values to the client and your staff while setting the right attitude to approaching a task.
There is one sentence that makes me cringe when a company fails to turn up and that is “sorry the van broke down" just makes me shudder and even if it was the truth it feels like a lie. This is the same for jobs, can’t be done, aww not sure about that and its just how they work its not acceptable. I think a clear, honest and valued explanation is all that always needed to any scenario, even if its not want someone wants to hear.
So true, possibly with the exception of people you wouldn’t want as customers anyway!
A clear, honest explanation demonstrates understanding (both of the customer and the technology) and caring and thus inspires confidence. BS demonstrates either lack of understanding (all too frequently of the technology itself), or lack of caring or both.