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									PV inverters seem to interact - Solar Photovoltaic (PV)				            </title>
            <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/pv-inverters-seem-to-interact/</link>
            <description>Questions and discussions about renewable heating and heat pumps</description>
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                        <title>RE: PV inverters seem to interact</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/pv-inverters-seem-to-interact/paged/2/#post-29125</link>
                        <pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2024 11:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@transparent &lt;&lt;Raspberry-Pi-controlled robotic arm&gt;&gt;
Not far off, my fallback solution was going to be a Rasp Pi controlling a Solid state relay which then activates a small con...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@transparent &lt;&lt;<span>Raspberry-Pi-controlled robotic arm&gt;&gt;</span></p>
<p>Not far off, my fallback solution was going to be a Rasp Pi controlling a Solid state relay which then activates a small contactor to feed the garden system an hour after sunrise. Needs a wee bit of intelligence to cope with seasonal timings. Very straightforward but happily not needed.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/">Solar Photovoltaic (PV)</category>                        <dc:creator>geo3geo</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: PV inverters seem to interact</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/pv-inverters-seem-to-interact/paged/2/#post-29124</link>
                        <pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2024 10:57:30 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@transparent &lt;&lt;We don&#039;t know what they&#039;ve changed&gt;&gt;Yes I share that concern. I decided it would a waste of time asking as they wouldn&#039;t tell me anyway. They didn&#039;t actually ever ...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[@transparent &lt;&lt;<span>We don't know what they've changed&gt;&gt;<br />Yes I share that concern. I decided it would a waste of time asking as they wouldn't tell me anyway. They didn't actually ever admit the problem existed but implied a software upgrade would help. Hmmmm.</span>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/">Solar Photovoltaic (PV)</category>                        <dc:creator>geo3geo</dc:creator>
                        <guid isPermaLink="true">https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/pv-inverters-seem-to-interact/paged/2/#post-29124</guid>
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                        <title>RE: PV inverters seem to interact</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/pv-inverters-seem-to-interact/paged/2/#post-29120</link>
                        <pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2024 10:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[Well that&#039;s a relief in one sense @geo3geo  in that you now have 2 operational inverters, but without the mains trip opening.
The less-than-welcome news is that it was achieved by installin...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well that's a relief in one sense @geo3geo  in that you now have 2 operational inverters, but without the mains trip opening.</p>
<p>The less-than-welcome news is that it was achieved by installing a firmware upgrade from the manufacturer, Solis.<br />We don't know what they've changed!</p>
<p>At one point in your blog, I'd wondered if we might be heading in the direction of an Raspberry-Pi-controlled robotic arm to detect sunrise and throw a towel over the shed PV array!<br />That would, of course, have been an ARM-powered solution &#x1f609; </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Your experience also raises another slightly-worrying aspect of grid-tied inverters...</p>
<p>... the manufacturers seem to be aware of 'aberations' which they inflict onto the grid of sufficient magnitude that they can cause a trip to open.</p>
<p>That begs the question of how/why the ENA is approving such devices under <strong>G99</strong>.</p>
<p>I can understand them being assigned <strong>G98</strong> certification because that's an in-house test against a written specification.<br />But <strong>G99</strong> applies when there is more than one export-device on site and the potential to export above 16A per phase.<br />That means the ENA has investigated the situation and placed the export-capable devices on their approved list.</p>
<p>I'm currently working on the design of devices which are 'grid-friendly' in a variety of different ways.<br />So I don't like the sound of there being thousands of devices already installed which are possibly:</p>
<ul>
<li>causing earth-loop currents</li>
<li>causing spikes/sags</li>
<li>phase-shifting</li>
<li>causing current to flow in the (3-phase) neutral connection to the sub-station transformer</li>
</ul>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/">Solar Photovoltaic (PV)</category>                        <dc:creator>Transparent</dc:creator>
                        <guid isPermaLink="true">https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/pv-inverters-seem-to-interact/paged/2/#post-29120</guid>
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                        <title>RE: PV inverters seem to interact</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/pv-inverters-seem-to-interact/paged/2/#post-29116</link>
                        <pubDate>Sat, 23 Mar 2024 09:00:08 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[After over a month since the last post on this topic I can now report that it&#039;s all been resolved. I&#039;ve done a blog on it all which can be read at duellinginverters.blogspot.com -  just clic...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After over a month since the last post on this topic I can now report that it's all been resolved. I've done a blog on it all which can be read at duellinginverters.blogspot.com -  just click <a href="https://duellinginverters.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">here</a></p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/">Solar Photovoltaic (PV)</category>                        <dc:creator>geo3geo</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: PV inverters seem to interact</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/pv-inverters-seem-to-interact/paged/2/#post-27654</link>
                        <pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2024 18:07:12 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@transparent Yes I agree, let&#039;s leave it here for now. This morning&#039;s 5am trip has really thrown a spanner in the works, I thought I&#039;d really pinned down the conditions that cause a trip. Ev...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@transparent Yes I agree, let's leave it here for now. This morning's 5am trip has really thrown a spanner in the works, I thought I'd really pinned down the conditions that cause a trip. Everything was so repeatable. I'll now have to do more days of monitoring to see what pattern transpires. In the meantime I'll order a surge suppressor or two. I'll post something when I have something solid to add.</p>
<p>In the meantime I would like to say a really big thank you for all the crystal clear information you've put up here on this problem. </p>
<p>Signing out for now, Geo</p>
<p> </p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/">Solar Photovoltaic (PV)</category>                        <dc:creator>geo3geo</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: PV inverters seem to interact</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/pv-inverters-seem-to-interact/paged/2/#post-27646</link>
                        <pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2024 15:39:13 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[I&#039;d recommend we leave this discussion here @geo3geo 
The underlying causes of RCDs tripping isn&#039;t at all clear.We are both experiencing the same problem, but with quite different designs o...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'd recommend we leave this discussion here @geo3geo </p>
<p>The underlying causes of RCDs tripping isn't at all clear.<br />We are both experiencing the same problem, but with quite different designs of inverter.<br />To add to the knowledge-base, we need others to come across this topic and contribute their own insights.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm deliberately keeping my explanations simple because we want this discussion to be read by those without engineering experience and degrees.</p>
<p>Here's my present overview:</p>
<ol>
<li>I have three inverters with internal transformers, whilst you have two inverters which use (solid-state) electronics to create the sine-wave output.</li>
<li>You have an old RCD, which will be Type-A, whilst I have an RCBO.</li>
<li>In both cases we are seeing the trip contacts open on a device which detects imbalance between the current going out on the 'live' and that returning on the 'neutral'.</li>
<li>We have got <a href="https://diysolarforum.com/threads/growatt-rcbo-or-rcd-tripping-or-disconnecting.42896/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">a third-party report</a> of similar tripping on my type of inverter with internal transformers.</li>
</ol>
<p>That's too little information to reach a conclusion at this stage.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>Transients:</strong></p>
<p>These are understood to be <span style="text-decoration: underline">voltage</span> anomalies which can be caused from external sources such as lightning, or internal sources such as an electric motor switching off (back-EMF).<br />For a single-phase domestic supply, that means the spike/surge is outside the 678v peak-to-peak voltage of a mains feed at 240v AC:</p>
6401
<p>To cause sufficient <span style="text-decoration: underline">current imbalance</span> that a 30mA-rated RCD trips-out there would need to be considerable energy within those transient spikes.<br />But it's possible.</p>
<p>Lower-energy transients from an internal source can be removed by inserting a <strong>spike filter</strong> into the supply.</p>
6402
<p>These are commonly available because they are usually installed in mains-operated medical equipment.<br />I have one within the isolation-switch for my TIG welder, but facing the opposite way around. It prevents spikes from the welder being propagated to other equipment in that workshop ring-main. It's rated 16A and costs <a href="https://cpc.farnell.com/schaffner/303-1226/chassis-mount-filter-16a/dp/PL07812" target="_blank" rel="noopener">£19 from CPC-Farnell</a></p>
6403
<p>I could place such a filter on the supply to each of my inverters to see if that affected spurious tripping.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I also have a pair of <strong>Surge Suppressors</strong> within my consumer unit, directly after the Main Switch.<br />They serve two functions:</p>
<ul>
<li>any externally-induced spike will be quenched at the point of entry to the house</li>
<li>any appliance generating a spike within the house may damage other devices on that circuit, but the Suppressors will quench that over-voltage transient before it could be passed to other circuits.</li>
</ul>
6404
<p>As I've used such Surge Suppressors for 30+ years, I tend to buy from the high-end of the market.<br />The leaders in this technology are Phoenix Contact, based in the German Black Forest.<br />The pair in the above photo will successfully handle lightning-strikes up to 40kA.<br />They self-heal between the lightning transients.</p>
<p>Surge Suppressors are now commonly fitted within new consumer units.<br />These are usually devices manufactured in the Far East, and can cost as little as £20/pair</p>
<p>There are also specialist anti-surge devices which can be fitted on the pair of down-leads from rooftop solar panels.</p>
6405
6406
<p>As I have four separate solar-panel arrays on my rooftop, and the house is on a hill, PV lightning suppressors are an 'essential'.<br />Once again, I use Phoenix Contact units, costing around £100 per array.</p>
6407
<p>Having said that, I can't see how a solar-panel surge arrestor would have any affect on the RCD which supplies mains power to the inverter.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Spike filters and surge suppressors need to be installed with <span style="text-decoration: underline">a good earth connection</span>.</p>
<p>When energy from a surge is removed from the live or neutral, it's the earth wire which carries the charge away.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/">Solar Photovoltaic (PV)</category>                        <dc:creator>Transparent</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: PV inverters seem to interact</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/pv-inverters-seem-to-interact/paged/2/#post-27629</link>
                        <pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2024 08:54:16 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[Wed 14th Feb, garden MCB closed, garden inverter isolator open. earth tripped between 4:45am and 4:50am. EV on program charge from 0:30 to 05:30. EV charge recorder says it was on for 4hrs !...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wed 14th Feb, garden MCB closed, garden inverter isolator open. earth tripped between 4:45am and 4:50am. EV on program charge from 0:30 to 05:30. EV charge recorder says it was on for 4hrs !?!?</p>
<p>As the post content is expanding sideways, crossing topic boundries, I wonder if this discussion would be better continued outside the forum (?)</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/">Solar Photovoltaic (PV)</category>                        <dc:creator>geo3geo</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: PV inverters seem to interact</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/pv-inverters-seem-to-interact/paged/2/#post-27606</link>
                        <pubDate>Tue, 13 Feb 2024 16:51:11 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[Yes, absolutely.
Cut out a set of paper scraps, each 18mm wide.Label them with MCB, RCD, RCBO etc.And start shuffling them around on a larger piece of paper which represents the (new) Consu...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p>
<p>I'm going to replace the consumer unit I need to take a step back and plan properly to sort out/make provision for,  these other issues at the same time.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Yes, absolutely.</p>
<p>Cut out a set of paper scraps, each 18mm wide.<br />Label them with MCB, RCD, RCBO etc.<br />And start shuffling them around on a larger piece of paper which represents the (new) Consumer Unit, and the secondary enclosure I suggested for your PV inverters.</p>
<p>You can then label the larger sheet with the circuit names.</p>
<p>Some Consumer Units have the Main Switch at left, and some at the right.<br />Others allow you to choose which end you want it.</p>
<p>Next to the main switch, leave two module spaces for a pair of Transient Suppressors.</p>
<p>After those, the other trips are generally arranged with the largest current ones first.<br />So your lighting circuits (6A) are at the far end.</p>
<p>It took me several weeks to plan my layout... which now extends to three enclosures, each 21-modules wide, stacked vertically above each other!<br />My overriding requirement was for future flexibility.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/">Solar Photovoltaic (PV)</category>                        <dc:creator>Transparent</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: PV inverters seem to interact</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/pv-inverters-seem-to-interact/#post-27605</link>
                        <pubDate>Tue, 13 Feb 2024 16:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@transparent You are right of course the two extra topics I introduced don&#039;t belong here and could confuse the main issue behind this thread. What I was getting at was that if  I&#039;m going to ...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[@transparent You are right of course the two extra topics I introduced don't belong here and could confuse the main issue behind this thread. What I was getting at was that if  I'm going to replace the consumer unit I need to take a step back and plan properly to sort out/make provision for,  these other issues at the same time.]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/">Solar Photovoltaic (PV)</category>                        <dc:creator>geo3geo</dc:creator>
                        <guid isPermaLink="true">https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/pv-inverters-seem-to-interact/#post-27605</guid>
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                        <title>RE: PV inverters seem to interact</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/pv-inverters-seem-to-interact/#post-27604</link>
                        <pubDate>Tue, 13 Feb 2024 16:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[Yes.
You&#039;re right to bring this up at the same time.However it needs to go into a separate topic where others can find it at a later date.
Have a look at what I&#039;ve written about EV charger...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p>
<p>maybe I need to make proper provision for my EV 13A outside charge socket, which is currently a spur off the downstairs sockets loop. The spur is fed via a 2 pole 16A RCBO. From what I read, EVs ideally need a type EV RCD, to cope with DC and transients. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p>You're right to bring this up at the same time.<br />However it needs to go into a separate topic where others can find it at a later date.</p>
<p>Have a look at <a href="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/postid/19007" target="_blank" rel="noopener">what I've written about EV charger supplies previously</a>.<br />Then add to <span style="text-decoration: underline">that</span> topic if you'd like further information.</p>
<p> </p>
<p></p>
<p>I'm still looking, medium term, at the possibility of an ASHP with battery storage to get lower running costs. The battery would have its own inverter, the prospect of adding a 3rd inverter given what I'm experiencing with two does not fill me with confidence.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Ditto.</p>
<p>That question is better in <a href="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/energy-storage/battery-system-for-cheaper-heat-pump-running" target="_blank" rel="noopener">a topic where battery storage for heat-pumps</a> is already being discussed.<br />You've already been posting there!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I'll comeback to the question about 'transient resistant RCDs' another time.<br />At the moment I'm preparing for a meeting this evening!</p>
<p>Yes, you'd be better off with Transient Suppressors.... but that won't resolve the problem we're discussing here.<br />And I need to draw a diagram to explain that. &#x1f914; </p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/solar-photovoltaic-pv/">Solar Photovoltaic (PV)</category>                        <dc:creator>Transparent</dc:creator>
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