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									The Changing Jet Stream Could Challenge UK Air Source Heat Pumps - Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)				            </title>
            <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/the-changing-jet-stream-could-challenge-uk-air-source-heat-pumps/</link>
            <description>Questions and discussions about renewable heating and heat pumps</description>
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                        <title>RE: The Changing Jet Stream Could Challenge UK Air Source Heat Pumps</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/the-changing-jet-stream-could-challenge-uk-air-source-heat-pumps/paged/2/#post-32953</link>
                        <pubDate>Sun, 11 Aug 2024 21:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[Warsaw, Poland (Latitude 52°N): Average winter temperature: Around -2°C to -6°C. Warsaw, while also benefiting from some moderating influences, tends to experience colder winters than the UK...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote>
<p><strong>Warsaw, Poland (Latitude 52°N)</strong><span>: Average winter temperature: Around -2°C to -6°C. Warsaw, while also benefiting from some moderating influences, tends to experience colder winters than the UK Midlands, illustrating the protective role of the jet stream over the British Isles.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Warsaw gets colder winters because it's further in land. From living in Spain which is 80% mountains I saw how in the summer it is so much hotter inland than the coasts and so much colder in the winter.</p>
<p>We could go snow boarding in Granada on a winter morning and the same day go lie on an Andalucían beach in a bikini in the afternoon. Germany, Romania Poland and Ukraine are good examples of really cold winters and hot summers. </p>
<p>That's not to deny the impact of the gulf stream on the UK of course but a Spanish meteorologist once told me that the biggest impact on British weather was being a little rock in the sea alongside the major landmass of Europe. He drew me charts of Atlantic weather patterns and how they hit our little rock. &#x1f601;</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>Lucia</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: The Changing Jet Stream Could Challenge UK Air Source Heat Pumps</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/the-changing-jet-stream-could-challenge-uk-air-source-heat-pumps/paged/2/#post-32922</link>
                        <pubDate>Sun, 11 Aug 2024 11:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[…but in this case you’ll be fine for a bit of lunch but it’ll ruin your barbecue. You’ll need a rib-sticking hearty slow-cooked stew instead but if you time it right you can cook it for free...]]></description>
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<p></p>
<p>@derek-m Could you be a little more precise please, is that a.m or p.m.?&#x1f609; Toodles.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Massive global events usually happen in the morning. &#x1f606; </p>
<p> </p>
<p></p>
<p>…but in this case you’ll be fine for a bit of lunch but it’ll ruin your barbecue. You’ll need a rib-sticking hearty slow-cooked stew instead but if you time it right you can cook it for free from the solar leccy generated in the morning.</p>
<p> </p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>Majordennisbloodnok</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: The Changing Jet Stream Could Challenge UK Air Source Heat Pumps</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/the-changing-jet-stream-could-challenge-uk-air-source-heat-pumps/paged/2/#post-32915</link>
                        <pubDate>Sun, 11 Aug 2024 09:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[Massive global events usually happen in the morning. &#x1f606;]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[
<p>@derek-m Could you be a little more precise please, is that a.m or p.m.?&#x1f609; Toodles.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Massive global events usually happen in the morning. &#x1f606; </p>
<p> </p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>Mars</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: The Changing Jet Stream Could Challenge UK Air Source Heat Pumps</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/the-changing-jet-stream-could-challenge-uk-air-source-heat-pumps/paged/2/#post-32914</link>
                        <pubDate>Sun, 11 Aug 2024 08:59:05 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@jamespa You bring up an excellent point about the adaptability of systems designed for certain conditions. While these systems are optimised for a specific range, many can indeed be adjuste...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jamespa You bring up an excellent point about the adaptability of systems designed for certain conditions. While these systems are optimised for a specific range, many can indeed be adjusted to cope with variations. As you noted, the potential changes due to shifts in the Gulf Stream or other climate-related factors may require adaptations, but not necessarily a complete overhaul – at least not immediately.</p>
<p>One other factor I hadn't thought of while writing the article is that g<span>iven the typical lifespan of heat pumps there is room for ongoing assessment of the risks and potential recalibration as our understanding of climate change and its impacts evolves. So, for example, if winters get dramatically colder over say a decade, then installation guidelines surrounding sizing of heat pumps would have to adapt and change to accommodate for these vacations. </span></p>
<p>Your concern about overwhelming the workforce with too many variables is also valid. The challenge is to ensure that discussions about future-proofing heating systems remain measured and practical, without causing undue alarm or complicating the already complex task of transitioning away from fossil fuels. </p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>Mars</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: The Changing Jet Stream Could Challenge UK Air Source Heat Pumps</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/the-changing-jet-stream-could-challenge-uk-air-source-heat-pumps/paged/2/#post-32912</link>
                        <pubDate>Sun, 11 Aug 2024 08:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[In some ways it&#039;s a major advance that we are actually talking about design.  Most fossil fuel central heating systems aren&#039;t designed so far as I can make out!
PS I wasn&#039;t for a moment sug...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p>
<div class="wpforo-post-quote-head">
<div class="wpforo-post-quote-author"><strong>Posted by: @editor </strong></div>
<div class="wpforo-post-quote-link"><a title="Go to original post" href="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/the-changing-jet-stream-could-challenge-uk-air-source-heat-pumps#post-32908">↑</a></div>
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<p>However, oversizing also brings inefficiencies and higher running costs in the short term, which we must weigh against the potential long-term benefits. This is what makes this so complicated</p>
<p></p>
<p>In some ways it's a major advance that we are actually talking about design.  Most fossil fuel central heating systems aren't designed so far as I can make out!</p>
<p>PS I wasn't for a moment suggesting you article was intended to help the fossil fuel industry.  However it will do anything to preserve itself so far as I can tell, so if it can use a spin on the gulf stream to sow fear it will.</p>
<p>Realistically any system design can only be optimised for a certain range of conditions.  If the conditions change then the system may perform sub optimally but often still acceptably, or may need adaption.  On rare occasions it will need replacing in toto, but usually only in response to large changes.  This is true for heating systems and many other systems.  </p>
<p>Also just because a system is 'designed' for say -3 at 45C doesn't mean it won't (automatically) increase the flow temp above 45 when the temperature is even colder.  Many, perhaps most, will, so will just work or may simply need a tweak to the WC curve.</p>
<p>I did think about the gulf stream issue a year or two ago in relation to my own system and concluded that ignoring it was both a safe way forward and probably the best given the timing uncertainty.  If it happens in 2025 then various adaptions can deal with it (from a heating point of view).  However I suspect heating might be the least of the problems this effect of climate change triggers.</p>
<p>My concern about introducing yet another variable (climate change at an uncertain date) into the design process (other than for geeks like us) is that it overwhelms an already strained workforce which, frankly, is struggling with the current design requirements.  If it is to be introduced then it needs to be done through some simple change to the target design temp or similar.  Asking installers to cope with the uncertainties is asking for trouble.  So I do agree it needs to be discussed, but in a relatively closed group that reaches and implements a conclusion not the general public domain and certainly not in the telegraph or daily mail.  Otherwise the almost inevitable result is further to delay the move away from fossil fuels.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>JamesPa</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: The Changing Jet Stream Could Challenge UK Air Source Heat Pumps</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/the-changing-jet-stream-could-challenge-uk-air-source-heat-pumps/paged/2/#post-32911</link>
                        <pubDate>Sun, 11 Aug 2024 07:46:13 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@derek-m Could you be a little more precise please, is that a.m or p.m.?&#x1f609; Toodles.]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[@derek-m Could you be a little more precise please, is that a.m or p.m.?&#x1f609; Toodles.]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>Toodles</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: The Changing Jet Stream Could Challenge UK Air Source Heat Pumps</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/the-changing-jet-stream-could-challenge-uk-air-source-heat-pumps/paged/2/#post-32910</link>
                        <pubDate>Sun, 11 Aug 2024 07:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@johnmo this is precisely the kind of conversation I wanted this article to create because your insights highlight several important considerations about system design and performance, parti...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@johnmo this is precisely the kind of conversation I wanted this article to create because your insights highlight several important considerations about system design and performance, particularly in relation to managing extreme temperatures.</p>
<p>It’s clear from your description that effective system design, including proper sizing and volume management, plays a crucial role in ensuring that heat pumps can perform reliably even in colder conditions. Your approach of using a well-insulated, airtight house with MVHR and a well-sized heat pump system is a great example of how thoughtful design can enhance performance and efficiency.<br /><br />The fact that your system performs well at -9°C despite being initially undersized speaks to the resilience of a well-designed heat pump setup. This is the question that I wanted answered, and that many seasoned installer are still grappling with.<br /><br />Your experience also underscores an important point made in the article: while heat pumps are designed to cope with a range of temperatures, the specifics of their performance can depend significantly on how they are installed and managed. Systems that are well-designed, with sufficient volume and appropriate control settings, can indeed handle colder conditions more effectively than those that are not.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>Mars</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: The Changing Jet Stream Could Challenge UK Air Source Heat Pumps</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/the-changing-jet-stream-could-challenge-uk-air-source-heat-pumps/#post-32909</link>
                        <pubDate>Sat, 10 Aug 2024 22:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[With good system design it need not be the case. Our house is new well insulated and pretty airtight with MVHR. Heat pump sizing was done my me on a self install. I chose the heat pump being...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p>
<p>However, oversizing also brings inefficiencies and higher running costs in the short term, which we must weigh against the potential long-term benefits. This is what makes this so complicated</p>
<p></p>
<p>With good system design it need not be the case. Our house is new well insulated and pretty airtight with MVHR. Heat pump sizing was done my me on a self install. I chose the heat pump being close enough and it was a really good prices - but it kicks out 6kW at -3 when my heat load is around 3kW. And at an average outside temperature of 10 degs I don't need heating. Getting a suitable heat pump not that easy and at the time none on the shelf. So not really by design I have a heat pump that's still ticking over at -9. But I needed to work smart to get it all to work. So no zones, no additional pumps just simple and open. And about 60-70L of system volume.</p>
<p>To support a given kW and not suffer short cycling you need a defined volume of water of 10 to 15L per kW output. Then a bit of fine tuning the running parameters.</p>
<p>I am currently running cooling via UFH - have been for the past month, the heat pump runs for 10 to 13 mins then compressor stops, for an hour or so based on floor return temperature (dictated mostly solar gain) and so overnight there is 3 or 4 hrs between runs.  When the compressor runs it has a starting spike of about 1kW and quickly settle down to about 6-700W. The pattern is pretty similar when I start to need heating. As it gets colder the compressor runs longer.</p>
<p>Low flow temperature is key to flexibility for falling temperature, you need headroom to increase flow temps as needed.</p>
<p>You can live with a perceived oversized heat pump. But you need big volumes of water with large heat pumps. So a 12kW heat pump is needing 120 to 180L. So a big system and/or volumiser or a big 2 port buffer, with hydraulic separation, suitably controlled.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>Anonymous 5011</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: The Changing Jet Stream Could Challenge UK Air Source Heat Pumps</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/the-changing-jet-stream-could-challenge-uk-air-source-heat-pumps/#post-32908</link>
                        <pubDate>Sat, 10 Aug 2024 21:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@jamespa Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and I appreciate your candid response.Firstly, let me assure you that the purpose of this article is not to provide ammunition to the fossil fue...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[@jamespa Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and I appreciate your candid response.<br /><br />Firstly, let me assure you that the purpose of this article is not to provide ammunition to the fossil fuel industry or to stoke unnecessary fear. Our goal is to engage in a serious discussion about how our climate is changing and what that means for our heating systems, particularly heat pumps, which are a cornerstone of the UK’s strategy for reducing carbon emissions.<br /><br />You’re absolutely right that many of the heating systems being installed today will be due for an upgrade by the time we potentially face the more severe impacts of climate change, such as a significant weakening of the Gulf Stream. The core value of 2050 for such an event does give us some time to adapt, and we can expect continued advances in heat pump technology and renewable energy integration over the coming decades.<br /><br />However, my article’s focus is on ensuring that we’re not just passively waiting for those advancements, but actively considering how we might need to prepare our homes for the possible extremes sooner rather than later. For instance, adding a 3kW Willis heater or adjusting the flow temperature as you suggest are practical solutions that could help mitigate the impact of colder days in the future. It’s essential to think about these options now, especially for households investing in heat pump systems today.<br /><br />Regarding the point about oversizing ASHP systems, it’s true that an over-specified system might cope better with a colder climate. However, oversizing also brings inefficiencies and higher running costs in the short term, which we must weigh against the potential long-term benefits. This is what makes this so complicated. The article aims to strike a balance between acknowledging these challenges and recognising the resilience and adaptability of well-designed heat pump systems.<br /><br />Lastly, I want to address the concern that the article is "scare mongering" or telling a "one-sided and distorted story." That’s simply not what I do. The intent was to present a thoughtful exploration of the potential risks and how we might mitigate them - not to suggest that heat pumps are inherently inferior to fossil fuel systems or to downplay their benefits. Heat pumps are a vital part of our transition to a low-carbon future, and it’s crucial that we understand and address any challenges that may arise as our climate changes.<br /><br />The article is not about delaying the shift away from fossil fuels but about ensuring that the systems we’re moving toward are as robust and future-proof as possible. It’s a conversation that needs to be had, and I’m glad you’ve contributed your perspective to it.]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>Mars</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: The Changing Jet Stream Could Challenge UK Air Source Heat Pumps</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/the-changing-jet-stream-could-challenge-uk-air-source-heat-pumps/#post-32907</link>
                        <pubDate>Sat, 10 Aug 2024 21:36:31 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@johnmo Thank you for your detailed response.Regarding the design of heating systems, you&#039;re absolutely correct that many boiler systems, like heat pumps, are designed with outdoor temperatu...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[@johnmo Thank you for your detailed response.<br /><br />Regarding the design of heating systems, you're absolutely correct that many boiler systems, like heat pumps, are designed with outdoor temperatures around -3°C in mind. As you mentioned, radiators are often sized for these conditions with little room for adjustment if temperatures drop significantly. This is a common design approach in the UK and reflects the climate conditions we’ve historically expected.<br /><br />Your point about high-quality ASHPs maintaining output at very low temperatures is well taken. It’s true that as temperatures drop, especially below -10°C, the efficiency and output of these systems can decline, with maximum output temperatures potentially falling to 40°C or lower by -20°C. This highlights the importance of designing systems with appropriate backup heating, especially in regions like NE Scotland, where colder temperatures can persist for weeks, as you’ve experienced.<br /><br />You also bring up a critical aspect of heat pump design according to the MCS guidelines, which require systems to achieve 100% of the heating duty at an external temperature exceeded for 99.6% of the year. This standard is indeed intended to ensure that systems are designed to cope with the coldest conditions typically experienced in a given area. If a system is designed for -9°C, as in your case, it should theoretically manage sustained periods at that temperature, regardless of whether it lasts a few days or several months.<br /><br />However, the article aims to explore the potential challenges posed by even more extreme and prolonged cold spells, which could exceed these design expectations. While MCS guidelines provide a solid foundation, climate change introduces an element of unpredictability, and the historical data we base these designs on might not fully account for future conditions.<br /><br />The intention wasn’t to undermine the robustness of current standards but to consider the "what ifs" as our climate continues to evolve. It’s about preparing for the unexpected and ensuring that our heating systems, whether boilers or heat pumps, can cope not just with the extremes we know but with those that may yet come.]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>Mars</dc:creator>
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