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									New ASHP system - choices - Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)				            </title>
            <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/new-ashp-system-choices/</link>
            <description>Questions and discussions about renewable heating and heat pumps</description>
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                        <title>RE: New ASHP system - choices</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/new-ashp-system-choices/paged/8/#post-30372</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 26 Apr 2024 20:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[In an ideal world a heat pump unit would contain two compressors, a nominal 12kW capacity heat pump having one compressor rated at 8kW and one compressor rated at 4kW. The 8kW compressor pro...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[
<p>All heat pumps will hit the point where their minimum output exceeds the heat being taken out by the heating circuit, not oversizing too much means that happens at a higher outside temperature. How the pumps handle the lower demand is really hard to pin down. I know my system when using the weather compensation curve worked just at its minimum power but cycled up to 6 times per hour. Switching to the room adaptive mode slowed the cycle to once per hour or so but with a more complex power consumption as it it often puts a burst of energy in before a pause. But overall this a more efficient mode - better COP. Looking at some similar systems on heatpumpmonitor, though, displays such dissimilar working patterns that it is hard to differentiate what elements are created by the way the house heating system is responding or is programmed.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p></p>
<p>In an ideal world a heat pump unit would contain two compressors, a nominal 12kW capacity heat pump having one compressor rated at 8kW and one compressor rated at 4kW. The 8kW compressor providing heating during most of the Winter period, with the 8kW plus 4kW meeting demand during particularly cold spells.</p>
<p>As milder weather conditions are encountered the system would changeover from the 8kW compressor to the 4kW one, thereby allowing a much lower thermal energy output without the possibility of cycling, and probably providing an increase in overall efficiency.</p>
<p>Unfortunately we don't yet live in an ideal world.</p>
<p>I believe that most, if not all, heat pumps control the stopping and starting of the compressor based upon the temperature of the LWT and RWT, such that when either of these temperatures reaches a defined limit, the compressor is started or stopped. This of course is more likely to happen during milder weather conditions.</p>
<p>The 'on' period and the 'off' period is therefore dependent upon the limits set within the controller and the actual temperature measurements produced by the LWT and RWT temperature sensors. One of the major determining factors affecting the frequency of cycling could be the location of the LWT and RWT sensors within the system. If the sensors are located within the outdoor unit they are likely to cool at a more rapid rate than if they were located within the home's thermal envelope, and therefore increase the cycling frequency.</p>
<p> </p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>Derek M</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: New ASHP system - choices</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/new-ashp-system-choices/paged/7/#post-30366</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 26 Apr 2024 14:28:24 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[All heat pumps will hit the point where their minimum output exceeds the heat being taken out by the heating circuit, not oversizing too much means that happens at a higher outside temperatu...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All heat pumps will hit the point where their minimum output exceeds the heat being taken out by the heating circuit, not oversizing too much means that happens at a higher outside temperature. How the pumps handle the lower demand is really hard to pin down. I know my system when using the weather compensation curve worked just at its minimum power but cycled up to 6 times per hour. Switching to the room adaptive mode slowed the cycle to once per hour or so but with a more complex power consumption as it it often puts a burst of energy in before a pause. But overall this a more efficient mode - better COP. Looking at some similar systems on heatpumpmonitor, though, displays such dissimilar working patterns that it is hard to differentiate what elements are created by the way the house heating system is responding or is programmed.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>HarriUp</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: New ASHP system - choices</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/new-ashp-system-choices/paged/7/#post-30365</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 26 Apr 2024 14:25:09 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[Thats precisely the same conclusion as I have reached. 
I have challenged MCS on the method they promote.  Their response was that they are aware of it&#039;s deficiencies but &#039;we don&#039;t currentl...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p>
<p>From everything I've seen so far, I think the heat loss calculations are more useful for individual radiator sizing than for overall heating requirements.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Thats precisely the same conclusion as I have reached. </p>
<p>I have challenged MCS on the method they promote.  Their response was that they are aware of it's deficiencies but 'we don't currently have an alternative'.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>JamesPa</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: New ASHP system - choices</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/new-ashp-system-choices/paged/7/#post-30364</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 26 Apr 2024 14:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@jamespa  Thanks. 
I&#039;d already concluded that the higher estimates are excessive, which is why I&#039;m going with the lower of the three figures that I&#039;ve received.
To my mind, empirical data ...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jamespa  Thanks. </p>
<p>I'd already concluded that the higher estimates are excessive, which is why I'm going with the lower of the three figures that I've received.</p>
<p>To my mind, empirical data should always trump theoretical calculations that are based on uncertain assumptions and approximations, but I realise the MCS approach doesn't really allow for this.  From everything I've seen so far, I think the heat loss calculations are more useful for individual radiator sizing than for overall heating requirements.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>MattC</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: New ASHP system - choices</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/new-ashp-system-choices/paged/7/#post-30356</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 26 Apr 2024 12:50:46 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[My property is 200sq m.  Two MCS surveys each taking 3hrs came out at 16kW.  They ignored fabric upgrades I told them about and double counted room to room loss.  Correcting for these gives ...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[
<p>@gary Thanks.  House is a similar size to ours.  It's interesting that you find even the 8.5kW Ecodan is overpowered. </p>
<p>We got three surveys that came out with heat loss estimates between 8.1 and 13.5kW, hence my uncertainty about the size of the system needed.</p>
<p></p>
<p>My property is 200sq m.  Two MCS surveys each taking 3hrs came out at 16kW.  They ignored fabric upgrades I told them about and double counted room to room loss.  Correcting for these gives 10.5kW. </p>
<p>Working from my annual gas consumption of about 20MWh would equate to a 7-8kW actual demand which is what I measure on my smart meter (note this translates to about 4kW most of the time ie other than when it's not very very cold).  To prove this I have turned my boiler max output down and downloaded/checked my smart meter readings. </p>
<p>I can get a spreadsheet calculation to equal 7 5kW by assuming 0.5ach instead of the default values MCS assumes.</p>
<p>So my strong advice it to be very sceptical about the higher figures you have been quoted and if you can, get a measurement.  Oversizing leads to excessive cycling and loss of efficiency and the spreadsheets suffer from gigo in a retrofit where the fabric has been non-uniformly upgraded.</p>
<p> </p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>JamesPa</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: New ASHP system - choices</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/new-ashp-system-choices/paged/7/#post-30353</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 26 Apr 2024 11:49:52 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@gary Thanks.  House is a similar size to ours.  It&#039;s interesting that you find even the 8.5kW Ecodan is overpowered. 
We got three surveys that came out with heat loss estimates between 8....]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@gary Thanks.  House is a similar size to ours.  It's interesting that you find even the 8.5kW Ecodan is overpowered. </p>
<p>We got three surveys that came out with heat loss estimates between 8.1 and 13.5kW, hence my uncertainty about the size of the system needed.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>MattC</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: New ASHP system - choices</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/new-ashp-system-choices/paged/7/#post-30352</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 26 Apr 2024 11:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[House is detached 180sqm 7kw heat loss from survey.  I get an SCOP of around 3.5 for heating.]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>House is detached 180sqm 7kw heat loss from survey.  I get an SCOP of around 3.5 for heating.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: New ASHP system - choices</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/new-ashp-system-choices/paged/7/#post-30349</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 26 Apr 2024 10:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@gary Thanks.  If you don&#039;t mind me asking, what is the size and/or heat loss for your property?  Or the usual daily heat output and COP from your Ecodan?  It would be interesting to know fo...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[@gary Thanks.  If you don't mind me asking, what is the size and/or heat loss for your property?  Or the usual daily heat output and COP from your Ecodan?  It would be interesting to know for comparison.]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>MattC</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: New ASHP system - choices</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/new-ashp-system-choices/paged/7/#post-30348</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 26 Apr 2024 09:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@mattc My 2p worth, Ecodan&#039;s don&#039;t modulate down well so avoid a larger unit if its not required as it will inevitably cycle badly at milder temps.  The lowest temp I can get my 8.5Kw unit t...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[@mattc My 2p worth, Ecodan's don't modulate down well so avoid a larger unit if its not required as it will inevitably cycle badly at milder temps.  The lowest temp I can get my 8.5Kw unit to run at without cycling multiple times an hour is 32C, this is too high a flow temp above 2C ambient, so my unit has to either turn off when it hits the thermostat temp which means the house temp cycles up and down 0.5C not a massive pain but means the unit isn't as efficient as it could be as its running hotter than it needs to, but it can't run any cooler and maintain a stable flow temp without cycling.]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: New ASHP system - choices</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/new-ashp-system-choices/paged/7/#post-30322</link>
                        <pubDate>Thu, 25 Apr 2024 15:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@harriup 
Thanks again.  I&#039;ve explored quite a lot of data (and plotted many graphs), but only have daily gas consumption figures from late January onwards (just caught the end of the last ...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@harriup </p>
<p>Thanks again.  I've explored quite a lot of data (and plotted many graphs), but only have daily gas consumption figures from late January onwards (just caught the end of the last cold snap) and don't have anything with negative AOT values.  However, the relationship looks pretty linear (just like yours), which I believe concurs with the theory, so I'm pretty happy extrapolating down to lower temperatures.</p>
<p>Assuming 90% boiler efficiency and calculating an upper 95% prediction limit on the regression, I get a total consumption of 130kWh at -5C.  This is with the heating on for 17 hours (it's currently turned off between midnight and 7am) which equates to an average of 7.6kWh per hour through the day. </p>
<p>This ought to be well within the capability of the 8.5kW Ecodan.  The 11.2kW unit would obviously be the safer bet, and would be fine at this temperature.  I'm just uncertain about whether there would be a performance penalty in milder weather when it only really needs to be putting out 4-5kW to maintain the temperature.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>MattC</dc:creator>
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