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									Microbore heat pump installs - Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)				            </title>
            <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/microbore-installs/</link>
            <description>Questions and discussions about renewable heating and heat pumps</description>
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                        <title>RE: Microbore heat pump installs</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/microbore-installs/paged/2/#post-62361</link>
                        <pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2026 10:18:03 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[When I wrote the piece I didn&#039;t have anything in mind, I was just conscious that unless it&#039;s a spam dunk conclusion there wasn&#039;t enough information to be certain.
If you want to determine t...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p>
<p>When you say '<em>otherwise you will miss some vital measurement</em>' -- which one do you have in mind?</p>
<p></p>
<p>When I wrote the piece I didn't have anything in mind, I was just conscious that unless it's a spam dunk conclusion there wasn't enough information to be certain.</p>
<p>If you want to determine the load at the room level (which is what is needed I think) you are going to need radiator size/type, flow temp and deltaT across the radiator.  You will also need know the duty cycle.  Probably this is needed (given the context, ie determining whether microbore has sufficient capacity) for the most lossy 2-3 rooms only, the others will probably be ok, but some back of the envelope calcs would be necessary to determine this.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>JamesPa</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: Microbore heat pump installs</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/microbore-installs/paged/2/#post-62358</link>
                        <pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2026 09:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@jamespa Sorry I&#039;m that late, I didn&#039;t get a reminder of having been cited, dunno howBravo! for the strikingly structured approach of yours. This is a remarkable piece which surely will be r...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[@jamespa <br />Sorry I'm that late, I didn't get a reminder of having been cited, dunno how<br /><br />Bravo! for the strikingly structured approach of yours. This is a remarkable piece which surely will be remembered and referred to.<br /><br />Only problem is, when you distrust measurement (being in good company then, as it is done by many, quoting idioms like 'measurement means mistake') while determining the '<em>Heat demand (set by the fabric</em> ', is it a good idea then to replace it with estimation mostly, since for most building fabrics there is no documentation available? And build the following three steps on that estimation?<br /><br />I myself do not very much trust heat demand calculations even in new builts (from a full set of planning documentation, nota bene) since EN 12831 more than once has been commented on delivering overestimated results even then (and when no doc is available and guessing takes place, surely the results get no better).<br />Similar train of thought I found in aitchtetepees://protonsforbreakfast.wordpress.com/2023/11/01/heat-pumps-cop-envy-is-pointless/ where a Joe Wentworth commented '<em>It is also not helped that i have found MSC required heating calcs to be a significant overestimate.</em>  <em>It feels measurement may be a good tool in the future rather than calculation leading to oversized systems.</em>'<br />Just these days I discovered aitchtetepees://heatpumpmonitor.org/ with its ample documentation of existing setups -- their '<em>summaries</em>' contain a '<em>Heat demand tool</em>' where the discrepancies between '<em>Heat loss value on form</em>' and reality (without quotation marks) are nicely noted; I think at least half of the setups run on oversized plants. Not that this is a general disaster, but when it's already on the brink if the hydronic system can transport and put out the heat, with big money at risk, it's surely a good plan to prevent overestimating.<br /><br />When you say '<em>otherwise you will miss some vital measurement</em>' -- which one do you have in mind?<br /><br />Would it be useful to shift such basic considerations of ours into the general thread about microbores, whose existence I only just noticed?]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>LeJamaisContent</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: Microbore heat pump installs</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/microbore-installs/paged/2/#post-62181</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2026 20:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[In principle you are almost certainly right, but in practice its going to need a lot of measurement and interpretation unless its a slam-dunk case which sods law says it wont be.  The experi...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p>
<p>The mock-up run will clarify if the pipework is fit for a heat pump, but not which nominal power output you will need. If you put gas consumption figures to the flow and outdoor temperatures tracking, you will get nice statistics helping you to design the system. This is something no professional can obtain without producing a quite crazy bill.</p>
<p></p>
<p>In principle you are almost certainly right, but in practice its going to need a lot of measurement and interpretation unless its a slam-dunk case which sods law says it wont be.  The experiment and its interpretation needs careful thought with reference to the physics.  Im not saying it shouldn't be done, but interpreting it meaningfully if it turns out to be marginal is non-trivial. </p>
<p>My advice is think through the experimental method, interpretation and possible outcomes first otherwise you will miss some vital measurement.  I, for one, don't immediately know how to interpret several possible outcomes without measurements you are unlikely to make unless planned in advance, and I have a degree in physics</p>
<p></p>
<p>Right, JamesPa, they don't, but me being nosy .... wanted to see if there's a chance of getting away without radiator swaps .... optimistically assuming that the microbores will do.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Maybe, but a separate question. </p>
<p>I find it helps to thing of heating systems in 4 stages:</p>
<p>(a) Heat <em>demand</em> (set by the fabric, desired room temperature and OAT),</p>
<p>(b) Heat <em>output</em> (set by <em>average</em> surface temperature of the emitters relative to the desired room temperature and their effective surface area).  </p>
<p>(c) heat <em>transport</em> (set by the mass flow rate in the pipework and deltaT across the emitters - individually and collectively) and </p>
<p>(d) heat <em>production</em> (set by the boiler/heat pump capacity at the design OAT and FT). </p>
<p>For satisfactory operation the specifications for b-d must be capable of being at least as much as a.  All four <em>will, </em>in operation<em>, </em>end up in balance one way or another, possibly averaged over time if the heat source is forced to cycle because it cant modulate far enough down to match the demand.</p>
<p>If you divide the problem this way you can partition it so that each stage can be individually assessed.</p>
<p>For most efficient operation and greatest comfort you want the lowest FT possible.  This leads to large emitters and low DT to satisfy (b).  This in turn leads to high flow rate to satisfy (c).  This in turn is why pipe diameter matters, because the mass flow rate is limited, in principle by pump capacity, but in practice in most cases by the maximum velocity of the water in the pipes before erosion and/or noise becomes a problem</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>JamesPa</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: Microbore heat pump installs</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/microbore-installs/paged/2/#post-62171</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2026 16:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[Right, JamesPa, they don&#039;t, but me being nosy .... wanted to see if there&#039;s a chance of getting away without radiator swaps .... optimistically assuming that the microbores will do.]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p>
<p>Yes for sure, but large radiators dont change the mass flow calculations and thus the viability or not of the microbore.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Right, JamesPa, they don't, but me being nosy .... wanted to see if there's a chance of getting away without radiator swaps .... optimistically assuming that the microbores will do. </p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>LeJamaisContent</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: Microbore heat pump installs</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/microbore-installs/#post-62160</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2026 15:22:35 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[Uh-oh, 85 kWh in 24 hours sum up to 3.5 kW in average .... perhaps the stove was meddling into the yearly result .... good you mention that.Anyway it will be difficult to find a heat pump wi...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh-oh, 85 kWh in 24 hours sum up to 3.5 kW in average .... perhaps the stove was meddling into the yearly result .... good you mention that.<br />Anyway it will be difficult to find a heat pump with less than 4 kW nominal .... at what temperature ever the nominal may be .... take care that you will need the 3.5 kW @ -3°C. Plus that, at temperatures around 5°C, some pumps spend a lot of time with de-icing, such decreasing the usable heat supply (you can see this in the tables given by the producer about power, temperature and COP).<br /><br />The mock-up run will clarify if the pipework is fit for a heat pump, but not which nominal power output you will need. If you put gas consumption figures to the flow and outdoor temperatures tracking, you will get nice statistics helping you to design the system. This is something no professional can obtain without producing a quite crazy bill.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>LeJamaisContent</dc:creator>
                        <guid isPermaLink="true">https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/microbore-installs/#post-62160</guid>
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                        <title>RE: Microbore heat pump installs</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/microbore-installs/#post-62153</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2026 12:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[I used this heat loss calculator based on my worse day which was 85kw of gas, on a -3 day at 22 degrees. Temerature on the day in question was -3 until 11am and rose to 5 degrees. So not tha...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used this heat loss calculator based on my worse day which was 85kw of gas, on a -3 day at 22 degrees. Temerature on the day in question was -3 until 11am and rose to 5 degrees. So not that accurate. Website is <a href="https://energy-stats.uk/free-heat-loss-survey/">Free Heat Loss Survey Tool - What Size Heat Pump?</a></p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
14915]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>kilgorexv</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: Microbore heat pump installs</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/microbore-installs/#post-62152</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2026 12:52:08 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@lejamaiscontent i did use one of the online calculators and at -3 degrees, with our current consumption which is shy of the 12k i said at nearer 10000 but i am not sure what impact the mult...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[@lejamaiscontent i did use one of the online calculators and at -3 degrees, with our current consumption which is shy of the 12k i said at nearer 10000 but i am not sure what impact the multifuel stove had and when we stopped using it. That gave an outcome of around 2kw. I am sceptical and your experimental route offers an interesting set of tests to annoy the other half with.]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>kilgorexv</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: Microbore heat pump installs</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/microbore-installs/#post-62151</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2026 12:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[@lejamaiscontent Thank you kindly. I am not in a rush, so waiting until next winter is not a major set back to work out what we need. We already have some huge in house temperature different...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[@lejamaiscontent Thank you kindly. I am not in a rush, so waiting until next winter is not a major set back to work out what we need. We already have some huge in house temperature differentials, between the front Northern ground floor bedroom and the rear kitchen living room. Already got plans to enlarge and replace some radiators to remediate the existing combi boiler system which should help set us up for next winters tests.]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>kilgorexv</dc:creator>
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                        <title>RE: Microbore heat pump installs</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/microbore-installs/#post-62146</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2026 11:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[Yes for sure, but large radiators dont change the mass flow calculations and thus the viability or not of the microbore.]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p>
<p>Nicely large radiators -- single layer or double? With zig-zag sheet metal dissipators on their back?</p>
<p></p>
<p>Yes for sure, but large radiators dont change the mass flow calculations and thus the viability or not of the microbore.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>JamesPa</dc:creator>
                        <guid isPermaLink="true">https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/microbore-installs/#post-62146</guid>
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                        <title>RE: Microbore heat pump installs</title>
                        <link>https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/microbore-installs/#post-62142</link>
                        <pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2026 11:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
                        <description><![CDATA[Nicely large radiators -- single layer or double? With zig-zag sheet metal dissipators on their back?When you live in an area with hard water, limescale may have limited cross sections durin...]]></description>
                        <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicely large radiators -- single layer or double? With zig-zag sheet metal dissipators on their back?<br />When you live in an area with hard water, limescale may have limited cross sections during the decades of refilling. Hoover bumps in the pipes along skirtings shouldn't be too deep.<br /><br />I'm underpricing JamesPa by saying that when you kept the house at 20°C more or less permanently (night time  and holiday setback allowed), at a consumption of 12 000 kWh per year you can cope with 3 kW heating power at -3°C. This means you will want 4 kW, the installer 5 kW but adding a 'margin' to 6 kW *rolleyes*.<br /><br />To calculate heat loss per room is good only when you know what's inside the walls and how efficiently the windows are insulated. Otherwise it will become more of an estimation or even a guess. An engineer will have a clue what is to expect but, without a pair of X-ray-glasses, can't look into the components, so he will 'keep to the safe side' and get to exaggerated results. <br /><br />When you want to know if the microbore system will do, my proposal as always is to try running a heat pump mock-up with your existing combi-boiler, as follows: <br />Before turning any knob, make notes of the current state first, then start by opening any thermostatic radiator valve (TRV) and putting the hall thermostat on full blast. Now you control indoor temperature manually-only by turning the boiler's flow temperatur knob as necessary or, if you have a weather compensation as part of the controller and know how to manage this, even better, use this to govern the boiler flow temperature. Meanwhile, the circulation pump will run 24/7, guzzling leccy like hell, but never mind, this being temporarily only and anyway cheaper than a dang-so-called-expert. <br />When you find some rooms getting warm but some not, start fiddling with the lockshield valves. Open the ones where the rooms don't get warm, when this is done to no effect start closing the other ones. Keep then in mind, that the very most action between closed and open will be in the first quarter-turn of the valve. Listening to the (typically low) flow noise helps to get your bearings.<br />During test run, don't do temperature setbacks (while being out or during night) and make notes of the flow temperatures which keep the house perfectly warm and in comparison track outdoor temperatures. When you get along with 45°C at 0°C outdoor, this would be fine, 50°C being a C minus mark, 55°C an D, but even better still than ransacking your home..<br />When you cannot get outdoor temperatures around freezing point to test for, you may want to provide a diagram with outdoor temperature on the one axis and flow temp on the other. After some temperature tracking, there will be a field of operating points which can be approximated by a straight line which may tell you what you can expect at low outdoor temps.<br /><br />Unfortunately, at the moment you come half a year too late or too early -- during summer, temperature differences will be too low to come to other than indistinct results supposedly.</p>]]></content:encoded>
						                            <category domain="https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/">Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)</category>                        <dc:creator>LeJamaisContent</dc:creator>
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